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Old 05-17-2012, 03:30 AM
 
570 posts, read 636,894 times
Reputation: 75

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
No squall; in a nutshell (unlike my usual long-run posts...) I'm thinking that you're insisting that original Islam is somehow responsible for much of modern science's achievements. Even though in fact it's been existing in an intellectual/scientific black hole for the past several centuries at least!

1) Am I understanding you? Right or wrong?

2) Have you watched my earlier video post, featuring Dr. Tyson's comments?

Yes or no?

Then, if I can better understand your points or arguments, I'll go on. Else it's a waste of time!
1) No , 2) yes
Dear rifleman ...
I am not insisting anything ...
My post was about the verse :
"Created of water squirts out from between the backbone spine and the ribs " .
I do not care what Dr. Moore or Dr. Tyson's said ,I do not care what any other one else said .
In Islam we do not have sacred figures who their words are unquestionable except for Allah and What have been proved literally of prophet muhammad's words (PBUH) .
Consider it as my personal explanation and give me your opinion please regardless of anything else .
The verse referred amazingly to the primordial germ cells (ovaries and testes) the genital ridge which found in the dorsal region of the embryo in front of the backbone ( between the mid-spine and almost against the bottom of the ribs ) before Embryo determined by gender (as it shows clearly in the picture below) :

If you don't want to reply then it's ok with me .. really .

What's more important to me is that at the end we all come to an understanding of each other .

Last edited by squall-lionheart; 05-17-2012 at 04:28 AM..
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:39 AM
 
570 posts, read 636,894 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
The site begins with the wrong translation of the verse in order to deceive and mislead us .
"He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs". (Qur'an 86:6-7)
This is the reall translation :
Created of water squirts out from between the backbone spine and the ribs " .
There is a big difference between a drop of sperm emitted and water squirts .
They also added the word drop which does not even exist in order to complete the trick and suit the meaning they wants from us to understand .
The first word (drop of sperm emitted ) is due to sperm originate while the second word (water squirts) is due to the gonad of both genders which we could find between the backbone spine and the ribs just as the verse said and as science prove now .

The site is full of language mistakes which the whole explanations of the meaning of the words were built upon and it is totally understandable why they mislead us once you know that the site promoting atheism .

Last edited by squall-lionheart; 05-17-2012 at 04:49 AM..
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:56 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,776,239 times
Reputation: 9293
The book seems to go heavy on human anatomy. There are mentions of being as close and precious as your jugular vein..It seems that a lot of the so-called science was gained in warfare..That the jugular was important because that is what you slashed in order to cut someones throat...People forget- After Mohamed married that rich widow..he took some of the cash and raised an army..Some call Islam the worlds only real religion..or legion ..I believe it is the worlds oldest corporation.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:26 AM
 
570 posts, read 636,894 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
The book seems to go heavy on human anatomy. There are mentions of being as close and precious as your jugular vein..It seems that a lot of the so-called science was gained in warfare..That the jugular was important because that is what you slashed in order to cut someones throat...People forget- After Mohamed married that rich widow..he took some of the cash and raised an army..Some call Islam the worlds only real religion..or legion ..I believe it is the worlds oldest corporation.
WT
Quote:
After Mohamed married that rich widow..he took some of the cash and raised an army !!!!!

I am a Muslim and I know prophet muhammad's history like the back of my hand .
This is the first time I heard that he raised an army from his wife's money !!
Could you give us the source please which you find that info at !!
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:38 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,321,442 times
Reputation: 1786
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
The site is full of language mistakes which the whole explanations of the meaning of the words were built upon and it is totally understandable why they mislead us once you know that the site promoting atheism .
Oh but we should accept your sites as truth™

The problem you fail to understand is that if this interpretation of yours were correct (it is not) then where oh where are the great muslim scientists......

Oh there are none

Who discovered the human ovum, a muslim or a german (probably christian)?

If the secular or religious man in the time of mohammed did not know the details why do you think a cryptic verse somehow proves the quran as scientific when the same silly book suggest mo split the moon in two?

You should earn what constitutes evidence, what you are offering and/or learning is far from reality and history.

Your ilk had no frigging clue of human reproduction just as everyone else did not know back then.

Only with the discovery of the microscope and the ovum were we able to piece together that one solitary sperm and one ovum causes conception. That was only discovered in the 19th century.

Your bronze age ramblings fair no better than the bible which is anyway where most of the quran is derived from.

Face it, you have nothing. Science's advancements were all thanks to western civilisation and seeing you did not even figure out that you had oil and it took westernised folk to exploit those resources, you pretty much have no claim to fame in the scientific community. Whatever you are learning now is thanks to westernised scientific discovery in the last 150 years imported by muslim lands.

Nothing profound has ever come out of islam nor christianity. Both are deluded into thinking they were contributors. And that is FACT!
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:41 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,321,442 times
Reputation: 1786
From my link earlier
Indeed, at first glance, this seems like a remarkable statement for a "7th century desert Arab" to make. However, upon closer study, one realizes that there is both explanation and error to this verse. First we must ask if this was an original theory, and second we must ask if it is correct.
Many people are amazed by the mention of sperm in this verse. This is nothing special. Since the beginning of time man has been aware of the "seed" that is released from the penis during sexual intercourse. The Bible, a text much older than the Qur'an, tells a story of a man who was struck down by God for "spilling his seed on the ground" (Genesis 38:9-10).

The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur'an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur'an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:
He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)
Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.
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Old 05-19-2012, 07:49 AM
 
570 posts, read 636,894 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Oh but we should accept your sites as truth™

The problem you fail to understand is that if this interpretation of yours were correct (it is not) then where oh where are the great muslim scientists......

Oh there are none

Who discovered the human ovum, a muslim or a german (probably christian)?

If the secular or religious man in the time of mohammed did not know the details why do you think a cryptic verse somehow proves the quran as scientific when the same silly book suggest mo split the moon in two?

You should earn what constitutes evidence, what you are offering and/or learning is far from reality and history.

Your ilk had no frigging clue of human reproduction just as everyone else did not know back then.

Only with the discovery of the microscope and the ovum were we able to piece together that one solitary sperm and one ovum causes conception. That was only discovered in the 19th century.

Your bronze age ramblings fair no better than the bible which is anyway where most of the quran is derived from.

Face it, you have nothing. Science's advancements were all thanks to western civilisation and seeing you did not even figure out that you had oil and it took westernised folk to exploit those resources, you pretty much have no claim to fame in the scientific community. Whatever you are learning now is thanks to westernised scientific discovery in the last 150 years imported by muslim lands.

Nothing profound has ever come out of islam nor christianity. Both are deluded into thinking they were contributors. And that is FACT!
Sir ...
I don't accept anything and I didn't claim my sites are the truth .
All I did was that I gave you the reall interpretation of the verse as an Arabic .
This is the verse in Arabic :
خلق من ماء دافق يخرج من بين الصلب والترائب "
This is the verse transelation from the site you post :
"He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs".
This is the reall transelation
In Englesh :
"Created of water squirts out from between the backbone spine and the ribs "

They give you the wrong transelation and they also added the word drop which does not even exist in the verse !!!
Don't take my word for it ...You can check it yourself by using any translation site .
Is that fair enough ?
As for the points that you mentioned which has nothing to do with the verse I can say this :
*I understand that now we don't have great muslim scientists......
*I didn't claim that we discovered the human ovum .
*I don't want you to believe the moon split in two as this is not our supject here .
*I know everyone else did not know anything about it back then and that is exactly where the exclamation relay .
Lets say that 10 years ago someone gave you an info about something that you didn't understand back then and now it come out to be understandable with a new science discoveries .
Wouldn't that amaze you ?
*Most of the quran didn't deriv from the bible as there were no arabic translation of the bible back then .
Again this is not our subject here .
*I do not deny Western Sciences Virtue and there is no shame in learning from Western civilisation about oil exploitation or about anything positive ..
Please be fair and don't let our bad state Present make you deny that once we had our share in science .
for example :
Do you know where the word Algebra that your children study at schools today come from ?
It is the Latin variant of the Arabic word al-jabr. This came from the title of a book, Hidab al-jabr wal-muqubala, written in Baghdad about 825 A.D. by the Arab mathematician Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi .
Origin of the Word Algebra
Jaber Bin Hayyan :
one of the world's most great scientists (born in 721- died in 815 ) was an Arabic scientist who lived in Iraq .He was the one who liad the foundations for modern and contemporary scientific chemistry.
And the list goes on :
List of Muslim scientists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What I want to say is that every nation has it's ups and downs, the world always changing and nothing good last ....history teachs us that .
Islamic civilization has been leding the world for hundreds of years .
Now its your turn for a while .
No fair person deny Muslims contributions in the field of various sciences in the past .
We put a lot of modern science basis and you built on out .. but we also do not deny that you invent much of what we know today .
I am beaing fair here and I really expect you to be fair too .
Don't let hate consume you from saying the truth .
If there is a defect then it is in us not in Islam, because we drift away from the reall concept and application of Islam and we substituted it with a set of customs and traditions which have nothing to do with Islam , added bad social and political conditions .
I had to reply on those points although they were out of the main subject .
Thank you




Last edited by squall-lionheart; 05-19-2012 at 08:18 AM..
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,321,442 times
Reputation: 1786
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
*I understand that now we don't have great muslim scientists......
*I didn't claim that we discovered the human ovum .
*I don't want you to believe the moon split in two as this is not our supject here .
*I know everyone else did not know anything about it back then and that is exactly where the exclamation relay .
Lets say that 10 years ago someone gave you an info about something that you didn't understand back then and now it come out to be understandable with a new science discoveries .
Wouldn't that amaze you ?
*Most of the quran didn't deriv from the bible as there were no arabic translation of the bible back then .
Again this is not our subject here .
*I do not deny Western Sciences Virtue and there is no shame in learning from Western civilisation about oil exploitation or about anything positive ..
Please be fair and don't let our bad state Present make you deny that once we had our share in science .
for example :
Do you know where the word Algebra that your children study at schools today come from ?
It is the Latin variant of the Arabic word al-jabr. This came from the title of a book, Hidab al-jabr wal-muqubala, written in Baghdad about 825 A.D. by the Arab mathematician Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi .
Origin of the Word Algebra
Jaber Bin Hayyan :
one of the world's most great scientists (born in 721- died in 815 ) was an Arabic scientist who lived in Iraq .He was the one who liad the foundations for modern and contemporary scientific chemistry.
And the list goes on :
List of Muslim scientists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What I want to say is that every nation has it's ups and downs, the world always changing and nothing good last ....history teachs us that .
Islamic civilization has been leding the world for hundreds of years .
Now its your turn for a while .
No fair person deny Muslims contributions in the field of various sciences in the past .
We put a lot of modern science basis and you built on out .. but we also do not deny that you invent much of what we know today .
I am beaing fair here and I really expect you to be fair too .
Don't let hate consume you from saying the truth .
If there is a defect then it is in us not in Islam, because we drift away from the reall concept and application of Islam and we substituted it with a set of customs and traditions which have nothing to do with Islam , added bad social and political conditions .
I had to reply on those points although they were out of the main subject .
Thank you
The problem is that you take and Iraqi citizen, equate that with islam for algebra and then claim a win for your book of myths.

You deny that the quran is not based on judaism b/c there was not arabic translation.

Now if there was no way of communicating in other languages, how do you suppose the west learned "your" algebra? See the problem with your argument?

Islam came many decades after the invention of xianity and to deny there was no influence is laughable. How else do you account for jesus being mentioned in the quran?

I am sure that you folk are not dumb but the religion practising dark ages mindsets in the 21st century is what is holding any budding muslim Einstein from emerging from anywhere where education is heavily influenced by religion.

I have great respect for muslims in my country but they are fully assimilated into western culture, my own doctor, till he retired, was a muslim and fine doctor. Where did he go to study? Ireland and he married a white woman.

The lucky few tend to escape to other more developed countries where their offspring can learn w/o fear of reprisal.

Famous black scientists

400 years ago, they had not even discovered the wheel in Africa. They had no "benefit" of "islamic enlightenment" that you lot are supposed to have had and an advantage to boot. Look at where they come from. Look whose culture they emerged from.

Other cultures like the Chinese have been to space. What islamic space program is there?

Hell even North Korea is way ahead of you lot (and they are frigging nuts)

The conclusion? Religions hold people back.
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:03 AM
 
570 posts, read 636,894 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
The problem is that you take and Iraqi citizen, equate that with islam for algebra and then claim a win for your book of myths.
You said we have no claim to fame in the scientific community (you mean Muslims) ... so I gave you an example of a great muslim scintest !!
Iraqi or Pakistani or Malaysian that does not matter as long as he is a Muslim .
Quote:
You deny that the quran is not based on judaism b/c there was not arabic translation.

Now if there was no way of communicating in other languages, how do you suppose the west learned "your" algebra? See the problem with your argument?
I can till you how algebra first translate to other languge .. where and by whom ...
Could you do the same thing with Quran ?
Quote:
Islam came many decades after the invention of xianity and to deny there was no influence is laughable. How else do you account for jesus being mentioned in the quran?
Please ...
At least stop puting words into my mouth ...
I said it was not transleted from the Bible ...
The similarity is limited to some of the meanings which is understandable because we believe that the primary source is the same .. Allah .
But also there are alot of fundmental differences from the smallest details to the basic tenets ...
The difference between Muslims and Christians are well known and it does not require a genius to figure it out .
So where you think those differences comes from if the Quran is just a translation of the Bible ?
Quote:
I am sure that you folk are not dumb but the religion practising dark ages mindsets in the 21st century is what is holding any budding muslim Einstein from emerging from anywhere where education is heavily influenced by religion.
As for us Muslims ...
I really believe that what is holding us back is that we drift away from the real concept of Islam .
We became Muslims by names only ...
Allah told us that our development and pride will always be linked to the reall application of Islam .
When we did that we were the only spotlight in a dark world and when we let go we become a third World countries .
I think that we are on the way to take our postion back starting from Malaysia the great Islamic countrie .
Quote:
I have great respect for muslims in my country but they are fully assimilated into western culture, my own doctor, till he retired, was a muslim and fine doctor. Where did he go to study? Ireland and he married a white woman.
God to know that from you ... but I dont agree we can only be good if we assimilated into western culture .
It is the other way round .

Quote:
400 years ago, they had not even discovered the wheel in Africa. They had no "benefit" of "islamic enlightenment" that you lot are supposed to have had and an advantage to boot. Look at where they come from. Look whose culture they emerged from.

Other cultures like the Chinese have been to space. What islamic space program is there?

Hell even North Korea is way ahead of you lot (and they are frigging nuts)
As I told you ...
Nation has it's ups and downs ...
If there was an internet 500 years ago I would have said the same thing to you .
It's just a matter of timing you lucky you
Quote:
The conclusion? Religions hold people back.
I dont know about other religions as I believe Islam is the only true religion now ...
So I would say before Islam come Arabs were weak and sporadic nations ..
We didnt have schools or universities and we were not interested in education ...
In less than a quarter of a century we overcome the most powerful nations back then the Roman and the Persian .
We were the first who built hospitals and roads and we have established universities .
We were the greatest empire in the world for more than 500 years and guess what ? that begins by the emerge of islam .
So for you to say that Islam hold us back contrary to a historical reality ?!!!!
The difference between Islam and the rest of religions is that it encourages learning and education to the point that it consider it as a sacred thing .
That is why we lead the world scientifically for a long period of time .
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:14 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,321,442 times
Reputation: 1786
Quote:
So for you to say that Islam hold us back contrary to a historical reality ?!!!!
The problem is whatever may have been, your religion has taken you backwards. It is not one of enlightenment neither are other religions.

True enlightenment started with the reformation and breaking away from the shackles of the Catholic church. You lot are gonna be 400+ years behind even if you started today.
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