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Old 06-01-2012, 12:12 AM
 
Location: USA
19,869 posts, read 14,745,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban Gal View Post
I also believe the GOOD Muslims need to speak out more against violence and acts of terrorism like 9/11. They need to take a harder stance and condone that stuff rather than apologize and tell us what they tell us in wake of it all.
I think many of them do but the two main things that I can think of are 1) good doers usually don't get as much press compared to the bad guys, so when moderate or secular Muslims come out people yawn. 2) Why should a Moderate Muslim who doesn't identify with a fundamentalist come out when they don't have anythin in common. Its like a typical Baptist sticking up for a Branch Davidian 3) You don't bad mouth people of your own faith to someone outside your faith as they are still of the same cloth.
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Islam atrocities
18 June 2004 Beheading

More public executions

As they say, proof of violence and barbarism is there for all the world to see.

Move on, ya got nothing anyone wants to buy.
How many of those were legal executions done under the jurisdiction of an Islamic Court?

Many that are on the second link are executions by radical groups acting outside the law.

The top link is a murder committed by a militant group and not after due process of law. The Bottom one shows what I can identify as being in Iran under Iranian Jafa'ari law. Not in an Islamic court. (The hanging of the 2 young men)
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:48 AM
 
Location: Northeastern IL
198 posts, read 342,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban Gal View Post
I also believe the GOOD Muslims need to speak out more against violence and acts of terrorism like 9/11. They need to take a harder stance and condone that stuff rather than apologize and tell us what they tell us in wake of it all.
Sorry, I actually meant they need to take a harder stance and NOT condone that stuff... .

Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
I think many of them do but the two main things that I can think of are 1) good doers usually don't get as much press compared to the bad guys, so when moderate or secular Muslims come out people yawn. 2) Why should a Moderate Muslim who doesn't identify with a fundamentalist come out when they don't have anythin in common. Its like a typical Baptist sticking up for a Branch Davidian 3) You don't bad mouth people of your own faith to someone outside your faith as they are still of the same cloth.
Then again, it looks like you know what I meant to say.
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Northeastern IL
198 posts, read 342,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
I think many of them do...
Sorry, I disagree. I'm of the mindset that not enough of them do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
1) good doers usually don't get as much press compared to the bad guys, so when moderate or secular Muslims come out people yawn.
Now this I WILL agree with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
2) Why should a Moderate Muslim who doesn't identify with a fundamentalist come out when they don't have anythin in common. Its like a typical Baptist sticking up for a Branch Davidian 3) You don't bad mouth people of your own faith to someone outside your faith as they are still of the same cloth.
By not speaking out, they give credence to those who feel that the hardcore fanatics are speaking the real truth of what Islam represents.

It'd be the same as if mainstream Christians sat back and allowed the Westboro Baptist church and similar groups to be what the world sees of Christianity.

If the majority of those who follow Islam DON'T subscribe to the beliefs and actions of so called hardcore believers, then they SHOULD speak out.

Most Americans have been seeing Islam in a very bad light since 9/11, discriminating against Muslims, and even going as far as showing extreme hostility and anger towards them. A lot of that has to do with the moderates not speaking out more against violence and acts of terrorism, not taking a harder stance, and not openly condemning that stuff rather than apologize and tell us what they tell us in wake of it all.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:16 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,325,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
How many of those were legal executions done under the jurisdiction of an Islamic Court?

Many that are on the second link are executions by radical groups acting outside the law.

The top link is a murder committed by a militant group and not after due process of law. The Bottom one shows what I can identify as being in Iran under Iranian Jafa'ari law. Not in an Islamic court. (The hanging of the 2 young men)
Does it matter when the rule of law is Islam? Nowhere in the west these days will you find this type of barbaric behaviour is tolerated.

Those were just illustrations I googled.

Muslims here in SA do not do that stuff but these drive by posters from Saudi want us to believe that islam is reasonable when they still stage govt sanctioned public executions/body mutilations, something the west stopped long ago.

The only places islam is not radical is where it is under the secular laws of the land. Saudi is definitely not one of them.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Does it matter when the rule of law is Islam? Nowhere in the west these days will you find this type of barbaric behaviour is tolerated.

Those were just illustrations I googled.

Muslims here in SA do not do that stuff but these drive by posters from Saudi want us to believe that islam is reasonable when they still stage govt sanctioned public executions/body mutilations, something the west stopped long ago.

The only places islam is not radical is where it is under the secular laws of the land. Saudi is definitely not one of them.
Saudi is also one of the smallest Muslim Nations. Sadly for such a small nation it has a very high number of executions.

Out of the 49 Muslm Nations 34 No longer have the Death Penalty or have never used it.

World wide 42 Nations still have the Death penalty, at least 20 of them being Christian Nations. The USA is almost always in 2 or 3rd place in terms of the number of executions each year.

Here is a link about the death penalty and the number of executions world wide:

Use of capital punishment by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
It isn't but the middle east is the heart of Islam with Mecca obviously the center. Saudi money has been used to spread their brand of Islam to boot. Not exactly what most people in the world want.
Contrary to popular belief. Saudi is not the Center of Islam. The Kabbah in Mecca is the center of Islam in the sense we consider it to be the "Alter of Islam" the physical Center we all face in prayer and what we consider the most Holy Place on Earth.. But Saudi has no Religious authority over any Muslims.We do not consider the Kabbah as belonging to Saudi. We have no earthly central Leader.

As for Saudi using it's money to spread Islam worldwide. Ask any Muslim who has tried to build a Mosque, it is almost impossible to even get a loan from them tight wads to build one, and if you do manage to get one, it is usually turned down as they will only provide loans for Mosques that follow the Hanbli Madhab. Which is a the smallest Madhab only followed in a few countries.

"Hanbalis are concentrated in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, North East of Oman and the rest of the Arab Emirates. "

SOURCE
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:04 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,325,858 times
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Woodrow

It really doesn't matter what other xian nations are doing as regards the death penalty, none of them are killing women on trumped up charges of witchcraft. There is no such thing as magic good or evil. Another is adultery; no western nation executes adulterers.

It is this type of ignorance and brutality that turns or collective stomachs.

Your lame comparisons is one of comparing apples with chainsaws.

At least christianity has evolved even though once they too practiced this barbarism. The sheer lack of education coming from them shows they have little knowledge outside their view through a straw. As another poster stated, we cannot even find common ground to have a debate or discussion.

You are different as you are a convert and grew up with a better education and exposure to the world. Just like the muslims here in SA, they are all educated and not stupid.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,905 posts, read 31,804,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Saudi is also one of the smallest Muslim Nations. Sadly for such a small nation it has a very high number of executions.

Out of the 49 Muslm Nations 34 No longer have the Death Penalty or have never used it.

World wide 42 Nations still have the Death penalty, at least 20 of them being Christian Nations. The USA is almost always in 2 or 3rd place in terms of the number of executions each year.

Here is a link about the death penalty and the number of executions world wide:

Use of capital punishment by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The other guy does it too is always one of the lamest arguments, but one I often see here....The other nations that have the death penalty does not make the Muslim nations that do right....At least most nations that do have the death penalty try to execute in a quick and humane way....That is not the case with Muslim countries....In some Muslim countries, methods have included beheading, hanging, stoning, and firing squad. Executions are held publicly, to serve as warnings to would-be criminals. ....You are also mistaken about the US being always #2 or 3 ...#1 is China, estimated to be in the thousands of executions... #2 Iran, 360 plus...#3 Saudi Arabia, 82 plus....#4 Iraq, 68 plus...#5 USA, 43.

Here is the list of Islamic nations that have the death penalty for those who practice freedom of religion (ie, convert from Islam to another faith): Iran, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Qatar, Sudan, Mauritania, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, and Malaysia.

Incidentally America is not a Christian nation....

Check out this map... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:De..._World_Map.svg It seems to me that most Islamic countries do have the death penalty (red on the map)

Last edited by sanspeur; 06-01-2012 at 12:06 PM..
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Woodrow

It really doesn't matter what other xian nations are doing as regards the death penalty, none of them are killing women on trumped up charges of witchcraft. There is no such thing as magic good or evil. Another is adultery; no western nation executes adulterers.

It is this type of ignorance and brutality that turns or collective stomachs.

Your lame comparisons is one of comparing apples with chainsaws.

At least christianity has evolved even though once they too practiced this barbarism. The sheer lack of education coming from them shows they have little knowledge outside their view through a straw. As another poster stated, we cannot even find common ground to have a debate or discussion.

You are different as you are a convert and grew up with a better education and exposure to the world. Just like the muslims here in SA, they are all educated and not stupid.
Even in your continent Christians are hunting down Witches and Burning them to death. I won't post any links as it is of no importance what Christians are doing in reference to this thread. I know it is not occuring in SA, but Get up North and see what is happening in the undeveloped Nations. I mention that only to point out stupidity and ignorance have no preference, they appear in all faiths. Yes, we do have ignorant and Barbaric Muslims. And like you noticed most are in undeveloped Nations. Although the developed Islamic nations are few, You don't find that type of barbarity in them.

Look at what is happening in Indonesia in the Industrialized regions, Look at Dubai, they may have made some dumb finacial decisions, but they have developed quite well and it is a very tolerant nation of all people.

Malaysia is progressing quite well in the developed cities and provinces.

As for Adultry the different madhabs of sharia treat it differently. It is not a requirement that anyone has to be executed. You will only find that among those who follow the Hanbali Madhab of Sharia or the Shi'i that follow the Jafa'ari Madhab. The Wahabbi which is more of a vigilante heretical movement is the most guilty on a world wide level. However all of them combined are a very small percentage of Muslims, but they do reach the media and paint a bad picture of all of us.

Yes we do speak out against them. But they are difficult to reach. Most wahabbi do not openly proclaim following wahabbiism. Both Saudi and Iran are fairly well shut off from the rest of the Islamic world. Especially Iran.
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