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Old 06-13-2012, 01:23 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
They are following National Culture. what people call sharia are the renegage actions of some Wahabbi and Salafi or the Jafa'ari code of Jurisprudence used by Iran.

Sharia is a quite complex Judicial system very similar to US and British Law/ Same court procedures etc. the only difference is that under Sharia only 5 crimes require an Earthly punishment those being

Highway robbery
Theft
Illegal sex
False Accusation of Illegal Sex
Drinking alcohol

The first 4 do carry the maximum penalty of death, however a lesser punishment or even no punishment can be given. Under Sharia the Judges are obligated to find a reason for leniency if the court finds the accused guilty.

Those are the only crimes that can be punished under Sharia.

Mob actions are not Shariah nor are the actions of corrupt governments.
You miss a few...
Apostate must be put to death?
Blasphemers must be put to death?
I remember many threats and hate verse towards 'kafirs'.

More than half the koran talks constantly about kafirs, and how they are the worst form of life and the sira talks even more about kafirs, and jihad.

Islam at it's core is extremely violent towards non believers, and even towards other muslims.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
You miss a few...
Apostate must be put to death?
Blasphemers must be put to death?
I remember many threats and hate verse towards 'kafirs'.

More than half the koran talks constantly about kafirs, and how they are the worst form of life and the sira talks even more about kafirs, and jihad.

Islam at it's core is extremely violent towards non believers, and even towards other muslims.
Wrong on both counts about Apostates and blasphemers. That is not part of Sharia. Even stranger the 2 countries (Saudi & Iran) that are the quickest to execute either have it written in their national constitution that it is not a criminal offense to Apostate.

Blasphemy is not even mentioned in any of the four major Disciplines of sharia.

As for what the Qur'an teaches about Al Kafiroon (The Kafirs) read Surah 109

[Kafiroon 109:1] Proclaim, “O disbelievers!”

[Kafiroon 109:2] Neither do I worship what you worship.

[Kafiroon 109:3] Nor do you worship Whom I worship.[/SIZE]

[Kafiroon 109:4] And neither will I ever worship what you worship.

[Kafiroon 109:5] Nor will you worship Whom I worship.

[Kafiroon 109:6] For you is your religion, and for me is mine.
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:50 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Wrong on both counts about Apostates and blasphemers. That is not part of Sharia. Even stranger the 2 countries (Saudi & Iran) that are the quickest to execute either have it written in their national constitution that it is not a criminal offense to Apostate.

Blasphemy is not even mentioned in any of the four major Disciplines of sharia.

As for what the Qur'an teaches about Al Kafiroon (The Kafirs) read Surah 109

[Kafiroon 109:1] Proclaim, “O disbelievers!”

[Kafiroon 109:2] Neither do I worship what you worship.

[Kafiroon 109:3] Nor do you worship Whom I worship.[/SIZE]

[Kafiroon 109:4] And neither will I ever worship what you worship.

[Kafiroon 109:5] Nor will you worship Whom I worship.

[Kafiroon 109:6] For you is your religion, and for me is mine.

Apostasy in Islam:Richard Dawkins extracts some truth from a Muslim - YouTube
What does he say? "The sharia is very clear, apostasy is dealt with the death penalty".....

Ok, so either it is the quran, the sharia, or the hadith. The islamic prophet himself says something along the lines of, if a muslim leaves his religion kill him.

What did muhammad do when he retook mecca? He killed anyone who blasphemed against him.

Muhammad is the figure that muslims need to emulate, because their religion deems him as the "perfect" man.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post

Apostasy in Islam:Richard Dawkins extracts some truth from a Muslim - YouTube
What does he say? "The sharia is very clear, apostasy is dealt with the death penalty".....

Ok, so either it is the quran, the sharia, or the hadith. The islamic prophet himself says something along the lines of, if a muslim leaves his religion kill him.

What did muhammad do when he retook mecca? He killed anyone who blasphemed against him.

Muhammad is the figure that muslims need to emulate, because their religion deems him as the "perfect" man.
It seems you are misunderstanding quite a bit about all 3 the Qur'an. sharia and the Ahadith. It is hard to give any modern examples of Sharia as no nation follows sharia although both Saudi and Iranclaim to. Saudi follows a legal code based upon Hanbali and influened with wahabbiism/ While Hanbali is a legitimate Discipline of Sharia, Wahabbiism is not, it is an outside influence backed by some part of the al Sa'ood Family. Iran is Shi'i and Follows Jafa'ari as sharia. The video you posted is showing the teachings of Wahab.

As for the Hadith, they are not commandments, but quotes of things Muhammad said. to understand a specific Hadith one must know who was being spoken to and what the context of the conversation was. Many Ahadith are just fragments. Some might not have even been said by Muhammad. When the Qur'an and Ahadith conflict the Qur'an takes priority.

Perhaps the most glaring contradiction is that with apostasy. There are hadiths that say 'if a person leaves his religion kill him' (does not even specify leaving Islam), when the Quran says:
(Qur'an 4:137) 'Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.

Notice the Ayyat is speaking of a person who apostates, returns to Islam and then apostates again etc.

If the apostate had been after after he disbelieved then he wouldn't be able to return to islam and apostate again.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:17 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It seems you are misunderstanding quite a bit about all 3 the Qur'an. sharia and the Ahadith. It is hard to give any modern examples of Sharia as no nation follows sharia although both Saudi and Iranclaim to. Saudi follows a legal code based upon Hanbali and influened with wahabbiism/ While Hanbali is a legitimate Discipline of Sharia, Wahabbiism is not, it is an outside influence backed by some part of the al Sa'ood Family. Iran is Shi'i and Follows Jafa'ari as sharia. The video you posted is showing the teachings of Wahab.

As for the Hadith, they are not commandments, but quotes of things Muhammad said. to understand a specific Hadith one must know who was being spoken to and what the context of the conversation was. Many Ahadith are just fragments. Some might not have even been said by Muhammad. When the Qur'an and Ahadith conflict the Qur'an takes priority.

Perhaps the most glaring contradiction is that with apostasy. There are hadiths that say 'if a person leaves his religion kill him' (does not even specify leaving Islam), when the Quran says:
(Qur'an 4:137) 'Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.

Notice the Ayyat is speaking of a person who apostates, returns to Islam and then apostates again etc.

If the apostate had been after after he disbelieved then he wouldn't be able to return to islam and apostate again.
Are you saying you know more about the sharia, then this muslim debating with richard?

Is muhammad not held up as the example all muslims must follow?

If so, then muslims must marry many wives, some children, kill apostates, slaughter those who stand in their way...

Muhammad killed and slaughtered his way to power... You can not deny this, his religion is a religion of violence and campaign of death/rape. Even his own followers wrote down detail description of this.
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Are you saying you know more about the sharia, then this muslim debating with richard?

Is muhammad not held up as the example all muslims must follow?

If so, then muslims must marry many wives, some children, kill apostates, slaughter those who stand in their way...

Muhammad killed and slaughtered his way to power... You can not deny this, his religion is a religion of violence and campaign of death/rape. Even his own followers wrote down detail description of this.
In this case I would say I know more about sharia Than that that Cursed Wahabbi. the man sounds like he has not studied a single madhab of Islamic Jurisprudence.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
27 posts, read 30,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow L24746898
In this case I would say I know more about sharia Than that that Cursed Wahabbi. the man sounds like he has not studied a single madhab of Islamic Jurisprudence.

My brother Woodrow,
Why he cursed Wahabbi it is Islam itself as muhammed peace be upon him came by it ,Not another religion and there is hadith a frank in apostasy after " estitabh"
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NON44NON View Post
My brother Woodrow,
Why he cursed Wahabbi it is Islam itself as muhammed peace be upon him came by it ,Not another religion and there is hadith a frank in apostasy after " estitabh"
Peace My Brother,

In today's world there is no Sharia. Too often people are taking the cultural practices of some Wahabbi as being Shariah. In the entire history of Sharia no person has been executed for apostasy in a legitimate Sharia court.

Yes there have been Apostates Executed, however their apostasy was accompanied by treason and it is the act of Treason that was the crime they were executed for.

I will agree I should not have spoken harshly of my Brother in Public.

The ahadith in which the Prophet speaks of those who leave their faith should be killed, seems to relate to the Jews of Mecca that claimed to be Muslim, in order to gain the trust of Muslims and then turned against them.
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:07 PM
 
578 posts, read 888,542 times
Reputation: 650
I think RELIGION fosters dissent, confusion, narrow thought, conflict and war. All of them
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliz View Post
I think RELIGION fosters dissent, confusion, narrow thought, conflict and war. All of them
It is not the religion that does such. It is the person who does. You can have the same level of animosity among all groups even such benign things as Football or Soccer or other sports. It is not uncommon to see the same things happen at soccer games. The only reason the death tolls are not higher is because less people are involved.
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