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Old 02-14-2013, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quite a bit here. Insha Allah, I will avoid confusing things.

To make it more understandable I will break this into several Posts.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StopSpamming View Post
I used it to show that I am not fabricating it - otherwise I totally agree.



May I ask how you know this? I do not see this mentioned in the Koran.



1. How do you have all this knowledge? Nobody knows this and here you make it look as though this is an accepted fact. Has a Koran been found with dates that I am not aware of?

2. Where do you find the information that gives you the certainty that the Koran speaks of 4 wives and not 9?



Where is this information in the Koran? You are fabricating things due to wishful thinking. If I remember correctly you looked into ancient Arabic and should know what the letters mean. The word "or" only appears once in 4:3 if I remember correctly and it is NOT in between the numbers of wives. So reading the Koran literally we have: "marry them in 2's and 3's and 4's", which adds up to 9. How do you make 2 and 3 and 4 = 4?

I understand the intentions and that an allegoric interpretation will get you to where you are - but there is no certainty and no factual information, just faith. The Koran is vague, ambiguous and thus requires huge amounts of interpretation. And that's exactly what you are doing, which is fine, even for a sceptic like me, just don't make it look as though there is any degree of certainty here.
Beginning with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Someone making a Fatwa in Egypt has no more validity than me making one in Marion, North Dakota. A fatawa is an opinion and not a commandment nor a religious ruling. It is still up to the individual to decide if a fatwa is in accordance with the Qur'an. A fatawah has no more value or credibility than the person making it.
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by StopSpamming View Post
I used it to show that I am not fabricating it - otherwise I totally agree.
I had no doubt you were not making it up. But, I am glad you did bring up Fatwas. There is no standard interpretation of the Qur'an. Each Muslim is reponsible for his own words and has to accept any interpretation he quotes as if the words are his own. No Muslim speaks for any Muslim except himself. It is expected for any comment be questioned and one should always ask Why anyone has the interpretation or opinion he has.

With that said my words are mine alone. It is up to me to provide reason, if asked, why I say or write anything.

My primary sources besides the Quran, Tafsir, Commentaries, Madhab teachings are the little Arabic History I have access to. The Arabic Mythology I have access to including but not limited to "Tales of the Arabian Knights" aka "1001 Arabian Nights" along with online and email contact with Muslims whose opinion I value.

But overall, all Fatwas and opinions are of no more value than the person repeating it and the sources he uses


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

At one time it was permissible to have relations with slaves, but that was for a specific time and a specific people and no longer applies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StopSpamming View Post
May I ask how you know this? I do not see this mentioned in the Koran.
It is not specifically mentioned in the Qur'an.

I did not use the Qur'an as my only Source. Historically slaves were often used as concubines for sex purposes not only throughout the Arab qorld but in much of the rest of the worlds. Until the comingof Islam there was nothing prohibiting it in Arabia. Since the Qur'an had not been revealed to them they are with out sin for doing so as it had not been prohibited.

The ayyats that seem to justify sex with slaves are:

4::27
And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise


23::6
Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed


33::50
we have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those slave girls whom your right hand possesses out of those whom allah has given to you as booty

My own personal opinion is that these actually referred to whom it was permissable to marry. But I will acknowledge many interpret that as meaning who it is permitted to have sex with.

So going along with that Let us first look at who each of the 3 surah were addressed to and the reason for them

Surah 4--

Quote:

Let us now consider the social and historical considerations of the period in order to understand the Surah. All the discourses in this Surah deal with three main problems which confronted the Holy Prophet at the time. First of all, he was engaged in bringing about an all round development of the Islamic Community that had been formed at the time of his migration to Al-Madinah. For this purpose he was introducing new moral, cultural, social, economic and political ways in place of the old ones of the pre-Islamic period. The second thing that occupied his attention and efforts was the bitter struggle that was going on with the mushrik Arabs, the Jewish clans and the hypocrites who were opposing tooth and nail his mission of reform. Above all he had to propagate Islam in the face of the bitter opposition of these powers of evil with a view to capturing more and more minds and hearts.

SOURCE


Surah 23

Quote:

Both its style and theme indicate that it was revealed during the middle stage of Prophethood at Makkah. Reading between the lines, one feels that a bitter conflict had begun between the, Holy Prophet and the disbelievers of Makkah, though the persecution by them had not yet become tyrannical. It appears that the surah was sent down during the climax of the "Famine" in Makkah (vv. 75-76), which according to authentic traditions occurred during the middle stage of Prophethood. Moreover, according to a tradition related by 'Urwah bin Zubair, Hadarat Umar who had embraced Islam by that time, said, "This Surah was revealed in my presence and I myself observed the state of the Holy Prophet during its revelation. When the revelation ended , the Holy Prophet remarked, 'On this occasion ten such verses have been sent down to me that the one who measures up to them, will most surely go to Paradise'. Then he recited the initial verses of the surah." (Ahmad, Tirmizi, Nasai, Hakim).
SOURCE

SURAH 33

Quote:
The Islamic army's setback in the Battle of Uhud (A. H. 3) that resulted from the error of the archers appointed by the Holy Prophet so boosted up the morale of the Arab pagans and the Jews and the hypocrites that they started entertaining the hope that they would soon be able to exterminate Islam and the Muslims completely. Their high state of morale can be judged from the events that occurred in the first year after Uhud. Hardly two months had passed then the tribe of Bani Asad of Najd began to make preparations for a raid on Madinah, and the Holy Prophet had to despatch an expedition under Abu Salamah to counteract them. In Safar A. H. 4 some people of the tribes of Adal and Qarah asked the Holy Prophet to send some men to instruct them in Islam. Accordingly six of the Companions were allowed to accompany them for the purpose. But when they reached Raji (a place between Rabigh and Jeddah), they summoned Hudhail against them, who killed four of the Companions, and took the other two (Hadrat Khubaib bin Adi and Hadrat Zaid bin ad-Dathinnah) to Makkah and sold them to the enemy. Then in the same month of Safar, on the request of a chief of Bani Amir, the Holy Prophet sent another deputation of 40 (according to others, 70) preachers, consisting of the Ansar young men, to Najd. But they were also betrayed. The people of Usayyah and Ri'l and Dhakwan, tribes of Bani Sulaim, surrounded them suddenly at Bir Maunah and slew all of them. Meanwhile the Jewish tribe of Bani an-Nadir of Madinah, getting encouragement, continued to commit breaches of the treaties; so much so that in Rabi'ul Awwal, A.H. 4, they plotted against the life of the Holy Prophet himself. Then in Jamadi al-Ula, A. H. 4, Bani Thalbah and Bani Muharib, the two tribes of Bani Ghatafan, started making preparations to attack Madinah and the Holy Prophet had to go to punish them. Thus, after their setback at Uhud, the Muslims went on encountering repercussions continuously for seven to eight months.
However, it was the Holy Prophet's determination and wisdom and his great Companions' spirit of sacrifice that changed these adverse conditions completely within a short span of time. The economic boycott by the Arabs had made life hard for the people of Madinah. All the polytheistic tribes around Madinah were becoming rebellious. Inside Madinah itself the Jews and the hypocrites were beat upon mischief. But the successive steps taken by a handful of the sincere Muslims, under the leadership of the Holy Prophet, not only restored the image of strength of Islam in Arabia but also increased it manifold.

SOURCE


At the time these 3 surat were revealed very little of the Qur'an had been Revealed, the people were very much in their infancy in learning how to be Muslims. These were the first steps in making very drastic live style changes.

Now to Look at the Ahadith, this is just one. But it does seem that after the Qur'an was fully revealed Muhammad(saws) did teach it was not permissible to have sex with Slaves unless you were married to them.

Quote:
Hadith - Sahih Muslim, Narrated AbudDarda'
AbudDarda' related from the Prophet of Allah that he came upon a (slave) woman who was in the advanced stage of pregnancy at the door of a tent. He said: Perhaps he (the man accompanying her) intends to cohabit with her. They said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger said: I had decided to curse him with such a curse as may go along with him to his grave. How can he own him (the child to be born) and that is not lawful for him, and how can be take him as a servant for that is not lawful for him?
Now look at the Hanafi ruling on sex with a slave.

Quote:
Ma malakat aymanukum is the term for captives of war. A male master can have sexual intercourse with his female captive, he has no obligation to marry her even if she produces a child. However, once the female captive produces a child she must be freed. Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" and Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." and Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." and "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives' booties as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence."[8] —Hadith from Sahih Bukhari It was encouraged by the Prophet Muhammad for men to impregnate their female captives since the female then must be freed. The Qur'an also prohibits forcing a captive into prostitution so that only one man was allowed sexual relations with her. The female captive was adopted as part of the household and had to be treated well, like how the husband is required to treat his wife. Once a child came from the female captive, she was entitled to her freedom and to financial maintenance by the father of the child.
A strong deterrent to do so. It all becomes a moot point as slavery died out throughout most Islamic nations.

I will address the remainder of your post after I get some rest.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Continuing onward



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StopSpamming View Post
I used it to show that I am not fabricating it - otherwise I totally agree.



May I ask how you know this? I do not see this mentioned in the Koran.



1. How do you have all this knowledge? Nobody knows this and here you make it look as though this is an accepted fact. Has a Koran been found with dates that I am not aware of?

2. Where do you find the information that gives you the certainty that the Koran speaks of 4 wives and not 9?



Where is this information in the Koran? You are fabricating things due to wishful thinking. If I remember correctly you looked into ancient Arabic and should know what the letters mean. The word "or" only appears once in 4:3 if I remember correctly and it is NOT in between the numbers of wives. So reading the Koran literally we have: "marry them in 2's and 3's and 4's", which adds up to 9. How do you make 2 and 3 and 4 = 4?

I understand the intentions and that an allegoric interpretation will get you to where you are - but there is no certainty and no factual information, just faith. The Koran is vague, ambiguous and thus requires huge amounts of interpretation. And that's exactly what you are doing, which is fine, even for a sceptic like me, just don't make it look as though there is any degree of certainty here.
1. How do you have all this knowledge? Nobody knows this and here you make it look as though this is an accepted fact. Has a Koran been found with dates that I am not aware of?



While the Qur'an is not dated we do know what group each surah was revealed to and what major event it was close too. The Qur'an was revealed over a 20 year period and the Ahadith have a very detailed description of when and were Muhammad(saws) was during almost every day of those 20 years. We are quite certain the order in which each Surah was revealed.

Some sources that may help you understand how dates can be found and or closely estimated.
The Order of the Qur'an's Revelation
and the Growth of the Qur'anic Sciences



Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Qur'an




2. Where do you find the information that gives you the certainty that the Koran speaks of 4 wives and not 9?


In the ahadith,

the tafsir of ibn Kathir,

the 4 madhabs of sharia

The Sunnah

For example:

From the Tafsir of ibn Kathir

Quote:
The Permission to Marry Four Women Allah's statement,
... مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ ..
two or three, or four,
means, marry as many women as you like, other than the orphan girls, two, three or four.
We should mention that Allah's statement in another Ayah, جَاعِلِ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا أُولِي أَجْنِحَةٍ مَّثْنَى وَثُلَاثَ وَرُبَاعَ (Who made the angels messengers with wings, - two or three or four), (35:1), does not mean that other angels do not have more than four wings, as there are proofs that some angels do have more wings. Yet, men are prohibited from marrying more than four wives, as the Ayah decrees, since the Ayah specifies what men are allowed of wives, as Ibn Abbas and the majority of scholars stated. If it were allowed for them to have more than four wives, the Ayah would have mentioned it.
Imam Ahmad recorded that Salim said that his father said that;
Ghilan bin Salamah Ath-Thaqafi had ten wives when he became Muslim, and the Prophet said to him, "Choose any four of them (and divorce the rest).''
During the reign of Umar, Ghilan divorced his remaining wives and divided his money between his children.
When Umar heard news of this, he said to Ghilan, "I think that the devil has conveyed to your heart the news of your imminent death, from what the devil hears during his eavesdropping. It may as well be that you will not remain alive but for a little longer. By Allah! You will take back your wives and your money, or I will take possession of this all and will order that your grave be stoned as is the case with the grave of Abu Righal (from Thamud, who was saved from their fate because he was in the Sacred Area. But, when he left it, he was tormented like they were).''
Ash-Shafi`i, At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Ad-Daraqutni and Al-Bayhaqi collected this Hadith up to the Prophet's statement, "Choose any four of them.''
Only Ahmad collected the full version of this Hadith.
Therefore, had it been allowed for men to marry more than four women at the same time, the Prophet would have allowed Ghilan to keep more than four of his wives since they all embraced Islam with him. When the Prophet commanded him to keep just four of them and divorce the rest, this indicated that men are not allowed to keep more than four wives at a time under any circumstances. If this is the case concerning those who already had more than four wives upon embracing Islam, then this ruling applies even more so to marrying more than four.

SOURCE

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Old 02-14-2013, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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finishing up

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StopSpamming View Post
I used it to show that I am not fabricating it - otherwise I totally agree.



May I ask how you know this? I do not see this mentioned in the Koran.



1. How do you have all this knowledge? Nobody knows this and here you make it look as though this is an accepted fact. Has a Koran been found with dates that I am not aware of?

2. Where do you find the information that gives you the certainty that the Koran speaks of 4 wives and not 9?



Where is this information in the Koran? You are fabricating things due to wishful thinking. If I remember correctly you looked into ancient Arabic and should know what the letters mean. The word "or" only appears once in 4:3 if I remember correctly and it is NOT in between the numbers of wives. So reading the Koran literally we have: "marry them in 2's and 3's and 4's", which adds up to 9. How do you make 2 and 3 and 4 = 4?

I understand the intentions and that an allegoric interpretation will get you to where you are - but there is no certainty and no factual information, just faith. The Koran is vague, ambiguous and thus requires huge amounts of interpretation. And that's exactly what you are doing, which is fine, even for a sceptic like me, just don't make it look as though there is any degree of certainty here.

Where is this information in the Koran? You are fabricating things due to wishful thinking. If I remember correctly you looked into ancient Arabic and should know what the letters mean. The word "or" only appears once in 4:3 if I remember correctly and it is NOT in between the numbers of wives. So reading the Koran literally we have: "marry them in 2's and 3's and 4's", which adds up to 9. How do you make 2 and 3 and 4 = 4?

Keep in mind much in the Qur'an is subject to interpretation and opinion. No one person speaks for all of Islam or for that matter not even for as much as one Muslim except them self. We are not to accept anything unless we our self have found reason to agree with it. Here I find that the number 4 is explained best in the Tafsir and Ahadith I am familiar with. In the Ahadith it is noted that Muhammad(saws) understood it as meaning a maximum of 4 wives. I feel Muhammad had better understanding of the Qur'an than I ever will, so here I will place my trust that Muhammad(saws) is correct. I think I covered that in the above post

I understand the intentions and that an allegoric interpretation will get you to where you are - but there is no certainty and no factual information, just faith. The Koran is vague, ambiguous and thus requires huge amounts of interpretation. And that's exactly what you are doing, which is fine, even for a sceptic like me, just don't make it look as though there is any degree of certainty here.

Yes there is a lot of self interpretation involved in studying the Qur'an. But there is plenty of material available to help one come to an interpretation. Such as the various Tafsir, The Sunnah, The Books of Fiqh, the study of Islamic Jurisprudence and what the various Sharia Madhabs have arrived at. Studying how they arrived at their interpretations serves as a starting point for forming one's own opinions/interpretations and what to base them on.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:21 AM
 
72 posts, read 96,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Quite a bit here. Insha Allah, I will avoid confusing things.

To make it more understandable I will break this into several Posts.
It's a bit confusing for me now and makes it more difficult to maintain an overview, but I will try and keep it together.

The fatwa was agreed upon and done.

Quote:
My primary sources besides the Quran, Tafsir, Commentaries, Madhab teachings are the little Arabic History I have access to. The Arabic Mythology I have access to including but not limited to "Tales of the Arabian Knights" aka "1001 Arabian Nights" along with online and email contact with Muslims whose opinion I value.

It is not specifically mentioned in the Qur'an.
This is the explanation I was looking for. I look only at the Koran and if the Koran says human males are allowed to have sex with female slaves then that is what counts for me. I maintain that no text can override the Koran or should be allowed to contradict it.

Your claim of "At one time it was permissible to have relations with slaves, but that was for a specific time and a specific people and no longer applies" is thus your wishful thinking.

You are making several preconditions here:
1. you maintain the Koran was revealed over some years
2. you claim that the Koran was revealed to a particular person
3. you take hadiths as authentic texts
4. you take tafsirs as historically accurate descriptions

You also really, really want the Koran to be nice and cozy.

Well, I reject all of that until I have evidence for it. Without evidence I will suspend any speculation and go with what there is. What is a fact? The Koran exists and is the basis for Islam. We don't know who wrote it at what time and for how long.

So the basis for our discussion can only lie in the Koran.

My original assertion was:

Quote:
The way I understand it is that a man can't have sex outside marriage, but is allowed sex with female slaves.
A man is encouraged to have one wife, but can have several.
A man can't satisfy more than one wife but can have several if he can satisfy them equally.
How many is several? Well, the Koran says 2 and 3 and 4, which is 9 and a fatwa from Egypt substantiates this,
Still, most followers of the Koran will change that to 2 or 3 or 4, making 4 the maximum.
Others still maintain that fornication is prohibited completely and only a single wife is allowed.
I suppose it's down to interpretation.
If I go to a GCC shopping centre on a Saturday, many Arab men in their early 30s are in the company of several women, where the presence of a toddler in a pram with the foreign nanny suggests these are not only one wife and 3 older daughters, all covered of course.
I wrote this based on what information we get from the Koran. I reckon you know the book well enough for me not to have to dig up the numbers for the sentences, right?

You claim that you know that the sentences in question were "revealed".
You claim to know when in what time the individual sentences were "revealed".

You simply say:
"While the Qur'an is not dated we do know what group each surah was revealed to and what major event it was close too. "

I asked you HOW you know this and what has given you this knowledge.

As explanation you provide some dubious, man-made texts, written centuries later by unknown authors and unknown sources and collected and pruned and discarded and added and and and.

That is not what is considered to be proof, and not even evidence. This is better known as hearsay.

And if you are going to embark on proving the so-called "science" of the hadiths, good luck.

The Koran uses Arabic words. One of these words is "and". It is used in 4:3 and is used 3 times in the first part of the sentence. The only "or" is in the 2nd part of this sentence and I do NOT care what ibn Kathir says about whether he would WANT to see an "or" instead of an "and" as I go by what is a fact.

I even care less whether some guy commented a few hundred years later that he heard his father say that his uncle knew someone who had heard from so and so that someone else had mentioned some nonsense, when all it takes is reading the original.

So we are back at the same old question: does the Koran allow more than 1 wife for males and is this what is desirable to achieve the status of paradise dweller as opposed to hell-burnt?

Yes, I agree with you that the Koran is vague and ambiguous and thus requires interpretation, but you first need to establish what is vague and what is accurate. Then you need to establish how this aids in a Muslim/follower/believer to achieve what is meant and required.

If you make a mistake in your interpretation, it could lead to the pathway to hell and you should be careful to not make a mistake in the interpretation.

And lastly, we have reality. That is what my last sentence was showing: humans interpret and the man has several wives and many children and goes shopping with them on the weekend. Who has the right interpretation? Nobody knows - until we die.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StopSpamming View Post
It's a bit confusing for me now and makes it more difficult to maintain an overview, but I will try and keep it together.

The fatwa was agreed upon and done.



This is the explanation I was looking for. I look only at the Koran and if the Koran says human males are allowed to have sex with female slaves then that is what counts for me. I maintain that no text can override the Koran or should be allowed to contradict it.

Your claim of "At one time it was permissible to have relations with slaves, but that was for a specific time and a specific people and no longer applies" is thus your wishful thinking.

You are making several preconditions here:
1. you maintain the Koran was revealed over some years
2. you claim that the Koran was revealed to a particular person
3. you take hadiths as authentic texts
4. you take tafsirs as historically accurate descriptions

You also really, really want the Koran to be nice and cozy.

Well, I reject all of that until I have evidence for it. Without evidence I will suspend any speculation and go with what there is. What is a fact? The Koran exists and is the basis for Islam. We don't know who wrote it at what time and for how long.

So the basis for our discussion can only lie in the Koran.

My original assertion was:



I wrote this based on what information we get from the Koran. I reckon you know the book well enough for me not to have to dig up the numbers for the sentences, right?

You claim that you know that the sentences in question were "revealed".
You claim to know when in what time the individual sentences were "revealed".

You simply say:
"While the Qur'an is not dated we do know what group each surah was revealed to and what major event it was close too. "

I asked you HOW you know this and what has given you this knowledge.

As explanation you provide some dubious, man-made texts, written centuries later by unknown authors and unknown sources and collected and pruned and discarded and added and and and.

That is not what is considered to be proof, and not even evidence. This is better known as hearsay.

And if you are going to embark on proving the so-called "science" of the hadiths, good luck.

The Koran uses Arabic words. One of these words is "and". It is used in 4:3 and is used 3 times in the first part of the sentence. The only "or" is in the 2nd part of this sentence and I do NOT care what ibn Kathir says about whether he would WANT to see an "or" instead of an "and" as I go by what is a fact.

I even care less whether some guy commented a few hundred years later that he heard his father say that his uncle knew someone who had heard from so and so that someone else had mentioned some nonsense, when all it takes is reading the original.

So we are back at the same old question: does the Koran allow more than 1 wife for males and is this what is desirable to achieve the status of paradise dweller as opposed to hell-burnt?

Yes, I agree with you that the Koran is vague and ambiguous and thus requires interpretation, but you first need to establish what is vague and what is accurate. Then you need to establish how this aids in a Muslim/follower/believer to achieve what is meant and required.

If you make a mistake in your interpretation, it could lead to the pathway to hell and you should be careful to not make a mistake in the interpretation.

And lastly, we have reality. That is what my last sentence was showing: humans interpret and the man has several wives and many children and goes shopping with them on the weekend. Who has the right interpretation? Nobody knows - until we die.
Here to simply sum everything up. You and I disagree. We each have our own opinions and views and we have each expressed why we have the opinion and or view we have. No point in trying to convince each other. We are at an impasse. I am not going to convince you of anything nor will you convince me. No point in turning things into an argument. I'm not going to loose any sleep or endure any hardship because we disagree.

I accept full responsibility for my interpretations, to say things different would be hypocritical of myself. I do constantly look at other people's views and do my best to evaluate if they may present additional information that will cause me to reconsider my opinions.

But in the overall responsibility of my opinions. I alone am accountable for what I believe and at this moment I have not seen anything to cause me to change my view that we are permitted to have a maximum of 4 wives provided we meet the requirements for doing so and that we are only permitted to have sexual relations with a person we are legally married to.

The slave issue is a moot point to me for several reasons. First slavery is illegal in nearly every Nation including most Islamic nations second I would not own a slave even if it were legal.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You and I disagree. We each have our own opinions and views and we have each expressed why we have the opinion and or view we have. I would not own a slave even if it were legal.
It often is like that.

The last sentence tells me there is a person on the other end, a person with a lot of faith but also compassion and empathy, which many lack.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StopSpamming View Post
It often is like that.

The last sentence tells me there is a person on the other end, a person with a lot of faith but also compassion and empathy, which many lack.
Thank You and I appreciate your desire to discuss all things with Peace in mind.

Life is much too short to waste time with things that cause anger or entice us to treat others with malice.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:17 PM
 
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polygamy isn't forbidden in islam, but its also not encouraged. in the same way its not forbidden in christianity/judaism but also not encouraged
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:10 PM
 
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As of a few days ago according to a federal court decision, California law against a man having multiple wives was thrown out as it violates a persons religion. This is going to go to the supreme court, of course.

As the laws against same sex marriages have been called unconstitutional and same sex marriage is starting to happen all over the country, there is a big chance that polyamory will eventually be legal anywhere in the U.S.

They know that there are over 500,000 U.S. households that practice polyamory. Some men have several wives, and some women have several husbands. And the majority of them are not for religious reasons.

My own feeling after being married to the same woman for 63 years as of yesterday any man with a bunch of wives is crazy. One is enough for me, period.
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:01 PM
 
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When muhammed was growing up, girls in many cultures were a burden, and killed at birth.
It is attributed to Muhammed for putting an end to this practice, but there is no way to validate it.

However during his reign of terror, when he radided villages, the males over puberty were executed, and the females taken as prizes, for the men, or sale on the slave market. Age of the females was not a consideration as muhammed was a pedophile anyway, even questioning one of his men for tasking a matron and not a young child he could play with.
This particular case the person in question thought it not proper, and took the older one.

However, now there is a surplus of women, and they are property.

The number 4 was assigned, however whenever Muhammed wanted more, he just asked allah, and allah told him he could have more.
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