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Old 10-14-2012, 02:54 PM
 
775 posts, read 633,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Indestructible servants that require no maintenance. Can not be harmed or feel pain, created with eternal happiness and free from personal desires.
Is this ethically sound?

And if it is ethically sound to completely take away free will for happiness, why not just do that to us? We'd be eternally happy, right?

Or if it's better for us to have free will than just to be happy, then the 72 virgins are getting a worse lot because...what? Isn't Allah perfectly fair? Why don't they get it just as good as us (or why don't we get it just as good as them)?
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
Is this ethically sound?

And if it is ethically sound to completely take away free will for happiness, why not just do that to us? We'd be eternally happy, right?

Or if it's better for us to have free will than just to be happy, then the 72 virgins are getting a worse lot because...what? Isn't Allah perfectly fair? Why don't they get it just as good as us (or why don't we get it just as good as them)?
I doubt if we can or should assign human attributes to non-Humans. The potato you have for lunch is a living being, but it has no thoughts, feelings or awareness. Is it unfair the potato is created as such? Is it unfair the potato can never experience happiness? Is it unfair the potato does not have free will.

So it is with the Houri-Aynn, their only purpose is to serve us. they are created without needs or free will. Much like many other life forms that we depend upon. the cruelty would be if they did have free will and knowledge.

I like most Muslims believe the only creatures in creation, we know of, that have free will are Humans and Djinn. We pay a price for it, as we find either Heaven or Hell as a result of our own choices.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:15 PM
 
1,884 posts, read 1,657,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Is that who you really want to associate with in your heaven?
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like a full moon;
and those who will enter next will be (glittering) like the brightest star.
Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have no enmity amongst themselves,
and everyone of them shall have two wives,
each of whom will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the flesh.
They will be glorifying Allah in the morning and evening, and will never fall ill, and they will neither blow their noses, nor spit.
Their utensils will be of gold and silver,
and their combs will be of gold, and the fuel used in their centers will be the aloes-wood, and their sweat will smell like musk.


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Old 10-16-2012, 03:51 AM
 
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Woodrow, I've read many of your posts and find you to be a well-reasoned, rational being. Doesn't this whole concept of 72 "Servants" (whether they be used for sexual purposes or not) seem just a wee bit outside the realm of believable? I mean, you have to take a step back and ask yourself: can this possibly be true or was this taught to me through the imagination of man? I'm sure you don't fall victim to Nigerian email scams, so don't you have the slightest tinge of doubt about such a grandiose claim of 72 virgins?
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logline View Post
Woodrow, I've read many of your posts and find you to be a well-reasoned, rational being. Doesn't this whole concept of 72 "Servants" (whether they be used for sexual purposes or not) seem just a wee bit outside the realm of believable? I mean, you have to take a step back and ask yourself: can this possibly be true or was this taught to me through the imagination of man? I'm sure you don't fall victim to Nigerian email scams, so don't you have the slightest tinge of doubt about such a grandiose claim of 72 virgins?
It depends on how one looks at it. I see it as a statement that we can have what ever we desire in heaven. I doubt if any of us will want human pleasure in heaven. Yet, we will have all we desire and more beyond our imagination. Even if we limit our concepts of joy to human pleasures.

Actually if one looks at the description of the Houri-aynn we find it says "Companions of the highest virtue" the actual number is not set. It can be more or less depending upon our desire.

When we look at the Bible in the Book of Genisis and the Qur'an we read that the Angels prostrated to Adam. Us humans have much to look forward to if we seek heaven

If a man gets 72 virgins it is because that is what he wants. this is a statement that is both allegorical and factual. It is a statement of saying we can have more than what we can even conceive of as possible. I really have no desire for servants, but I see that as letting me know if I did desire such I could have as many as I desire and for what ever purpose I desire. So while I see it as allegorical to meaning I can have what ever I desire I also see it as factual as if I did desire earthly pleasures I could have them if I so desire, even if it is something as frivolous as an unlimited line of virgins.

A funny thing about getting old. we discover we no longer want or need what we wanted in our youth. In my youth I had a strong healthy body that served me well and brought me much joy. But now that I am old and have an old, broken decrepit body, I actually like this body more than the body of my youth as now I see pleasures that were beyond the ability of my youth. so it is when one day soon I trade this body off for a new resurrected one. Perhaps my desires will change. But to read of the Hour-aynn reminds me that if I gain entrance to Jannah, I will have all I desire, beyond what I can even comprehend.

Even if I were to limit my desires and wants to earthly physical pleasures.

I have no desire to have servants, I desire to be a Servant. My Islamic name is Abdullah, which means "Slave of God" I hope to live up to my name.

Today I have but one desire I would want fulfilled in heaven, to be granted the wisdom to appreciate the ability to Serve God(swt)
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,120,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
and everyone of them shall have two wives,
each of whom will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the flesh.

Come on, this is getting downright creepy!

Is that Muhammad's idea of a beautiful woman?

I wonder what he was smoking when he made that statement.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Come on, this is getting downright creepy!

Is that Muhammad's idea of a beautiful woman?

I wonder what he was smoking when he made that statement.
Keep in mind that is from the Ahadith and not from the Qur'an. Those are not the words of Allaah(swt) they are the words of Muhammad(PBUH) and he spoke in terms of his time to people of his time in the language of the time.

During that era light skin was seen as the highest beauty. He was describing in terms of beauty the people could appreciate and understand.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:17 PM
 
1,884 posts, read 1,657,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logline View Post
Woodrow, I've read many of your posts and find you to be a well-reasoned, rational being. Doesn't this whole concept of 72 "Servants" (whether they be used for sexual purposes or not) seem just a wee bit outside the realm of believable? I mean, you have to take a step back and ask yourself: can this possibly be true or was this taught to me through the imagination of man? I'm sure you don't fall victim to Nigerian email scams, so don't you have the slightest tinge of doubt about such a grandiose claim of 72 virgins?
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said,
The martyr (shaheed) has seven blessings from Allaah:
he is forgiven from the moment his blood is first shed;
he will be shown his place in Paradise;
he will be spared the trial of the grave;
and he will be secure on the Day of the Greatest Terror (the Day of Judgement);
there will be placed on his head a crown of dignity, one ruby of which is better than this world and all that is in it;
he will be married to seventy-two wives of al-hooor al-‘iyn;
and he will be permitted to intercede for seventy of his relatives.



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Old 10-16-2012, 03:33 PM
 
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You make it sound like heaven is just an extension of Earth, but with enhanced benefits. If I am lucky enough to get to heaven then being in the presence of God surely is enough. To achieve spiritual peace and enlightenment is far greater than earthly pleasures.
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
You make it sound like heaven is just an extension of Earth, but with enhanced benefits. If I am lucky enough to get to heaven then being in the presence of God surely is enough. To achieve spiritual peace and enlightenment is far greater than earthly pleasures.
Do you believe in the Resurrection of the Body?

Yes we will have a resurrected, a transformed body free from all imperfections , but it will still be a body.Having a body implies we will still be able to experience the pleasures we had on earth.

While simply being in the presence of God(swt) is more than sufficient. He is merciful beyond our desires and we shall not want. We get not only the unlimited Joy of His Presence we even get to do things we remember enjoying.

There will be Gardens of endless bounty and that is only the beginning.

We will not be Angels, we will be immortal Humans.
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