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Old 10-17-2012, 06:00 AM
 
762 posts, read 1,018,201 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Your attitude is right. I agree with mutual understanding Peace will come. That is a noble goal you have. Feel free to ask any questions and someone here should be able to answer. We have several very knowledgeable members. I have learned much from weeam and Truth Teller and others. With Weeam you can get the views of a young lady living in Saudi.

I am still a mere baby in Islam and still have much to learn even though I am in my 70s.

I spent the first 65 years of my life fighting Islam,45 years as a Christian and 20 as an Atheist, and did my best to destroy it as I thought of it as being evil. But I discovered I was listening to fallacy and Misconceptions. It took a personal experience with Allaah(swt) for me to discover what Islam was really about. I would never want anyone to accept Islam, unless they also had such an experience.

Islam is very much a self learned. process. We have no ordained clergy, Nothing that resembles a seminary. No centralized training for Imams etc. Typically a Muslim's first teacher is his/her Mother. From there it may stop or a person may start asking question of the nearest Imam. From there the desire to ask questions grows and a lifelong learning experience begins. there are many sources available to learn about Islam. there are the ahadith, in which we can read the words of Muhammad(PBUH) and learn how he followed Islam. there is the Fiqh-ul-sunnah in which we can read the words of the earliest disciples and how they lived Islam. there have been countless Tafsir Written in which we can read how various scholars interpreted the Qur'an. We can also seek to follow a Madhab and learn the teachings of the 4 main Madhabs. On a Personal note I like most American Muslims follow the Hanafi Madhab as it is the most compatible with Western living.

I will now go look at the post you wrote before this one.
Don't know about a noble goal..but it's what I believe is my duty as part of being the human race I could ask why you spent much of your life fighting Islam but that's personal to you so don't feel you have to share.

For my experience whilst I found muslims as people open and friendly I have found a different aspect within Islam. Example..in the UK people are free to worship however they wish, mosques, synagogues, and temples rest side by side with churches. Yet in Morocco and other Islamic countries I have lived in ...there are virtually no churches, Christians in morocco worship in each others houses, almost akin to an underground movement. My muslim friend would not escort me to a Christian meeting in case he was seen. This I find sad beyond sad.

I do not understand what Islam has to fear from christianity or other faiths, where is the mutual respect? There is but one God after all.

Honestly as a new convert yourself maybe you do believe Islam is first learnt by the knee of a loving parent, but when a child reaches the age then the Madrasah or Koranic school then it is learnt by rote with a rap on the knuckles with a cane for any questions asked. There is no other option given to children in Islamic countries, they are told nothing of any other belief systems. I guess this is why so many grow into adults not questioning anything they have been told. I say this as it is what I have been told by my muslim friends who have experienced this first hand.

It's sad that you did not find your place in christianity but I am pleased you found a way to God through Islam. Every religion has its books and words and rules, but I don't believe God can really be found there, it's bigger than that, it comes down to a simple act of faith. God will accept prayers at any time and from any place for he is everywhere and puts no limits on time.

Peace to you and thank you for your conversation.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,725,151 times
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Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Don't know about a noble goal..but it's what I believe is my duty as part of being the human race I could ask why you spent much of your life fighting Islam but that's personal to you so don't feel you have to share.

For my experience whilst I found muslims as people open and friendly I have found a different aspect within Islam. Example..in the UK people are free to worship however they wish, mosques, synagogues, and temples rest side by side with churches. Yet in Morocco and other Islamic countries I have lived in ...there are virtually no churches, Christians in morocco worship in each others houses, almost akin to an underground movement. My muslim friend would not escort me to a Christian meeting in case he was seen. This I find sad beyond sad.

I do not understand what Islam has to fear from christianity or other faiths, where is the mutual respect? There is but one God after all.

Honestly as a new convert yourself maybe you do believe Islam is first learnt by the knee of a loving parent, but when a child reaches the age then the Madrasah or Koranic school then it is learnt by rote with a rap on the knuckles with a cane for any questions asked. There is no other option given to children in Islamic countries, they are told nothing of any other belief systems. I guess this is why so many grow into adults not questioning anything they have been told. I say this as it is what I have been told by my muslim friends who have experienced this first hand.

It's sad that you did not find your place in christianity but I am pleased you found a way to God through Islam. Every religion has its books and words and rules, but I don't believe God can really be found there, it's bigger than that, it comes down to a simple act of faith. God will accept prayers at any time and from any place for he is everywhere and puts no limits on time.

Peace to you and thank you for your conversation.
Contrary to popular belief we are not limited to praying only 5 times daily. the five daily prayers more properly called slalat are more like a church service. Our Du'as are more like the christian concept of prayer. we say them anytime and place we desire. Du'as are a major part of Islam. although there are countless books of Du'as we are not limited to them. We say our Du'as in our own words and language.

Small world, I spent quite a bit of time in Morocco starting in the late 1950s and up into the 1980s. sort of considered it my home away from Home. I speak the Darija Arabic (Moroccan dialect of Arabic) reasonably well. However, it is not understood outside of Morocco and Algeria. My first times there were while I was in the USAF in the Later years it was as an Assembly of God Evangelist trying to convert Morocco. There actually were quite a few large and Beautiful churches in Morocco. The city of Agadir was predominately Christian. A Number of other cities also were. About the only city in Morocco I found to actually be fully Islamic was Fez. Casablanca was predominantly French with Sacre-Couer Cathedral in the heart of the city.



Yes in some countries the Qur'an is learned through rote memory.However that is because it is the first step in learning the Qur'anic Arabic. Qur'anic Arabic is a unique dialect unlike nearly every other Arabic Dialect, but understandable to all Arabic speakers. and it is essential to learn the proper tajweed.(Pronunciation) it can take up to 10 years or even longer to get that right. the commentaries and Tafsirs come more from a person's own searching.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:30 AM
 
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I didn't mean to suggest you could only pray 5 times a day, apologies if I gave that impression.

Small world indeed, there is still a church in Fez, I have not been to Casa, most of my time was in the South. Among the Berbers who have yet another language tamazight.. I gave up and relied on my French for the most part, which is pretty good and I got by fine. You were very brave to try and evangelise in morocco, others have been expelled from the country damn quick for attempting such foolishness. I think it's sad when people think to foist there religions on others..don't mean you personally. I mean in general terms, throughout history we see conversion or die by whoever is the victorious army at the time, then a few centuries later its all change again. For what purpose? To increase numbers of a particular religion...it has nothing to do with a belief in God.

Oops sorry I digress...anyway back to Morocco. For the most part I love it. The Moroccan Berbers think of themselves as being quite distinct from Moroccan Arabs, we have had many amusing discussion on the theme.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,725,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
I didn't mean to suggest you could only pray 5 times a day, apologies if I gave that impression.

Small world indeed, there is still a church in Fez, I have not been to Casa, most of my time was in the South. Among the Berbers who have yet another language tamazight.. I gave up and relied on my French for the most part, which is pretty good and I got by fine. You were very brave to try and evangelise in morocco, others have been expelled from the country damn quick for attempting such foolishness. I think it's sad when people think to foist there religions on others..don't mean you personally. I mean in general terms, throughout history we see conversion or die by whoever is the victorious army at the time, then a few centuries later its all change again. For what purpose? To increase numbers of a particular religion...it has nothing to do with a belief in God.

Oops sorry I digress...anyway back to Morocco. For the most part I love it. The Moroccan Berbers think of themselves as being quite distinct from Moroccan Arabs, we have had many amusing discussion on the theme.
La Bas Aleekum

Sounds like you may have been down by the Dra Valley region. Did you get to Marrakesh?

I loved Morocco. I found the Northern section (former Spanish Morocco) to be a bit strange. Although I think Tetouan was one of the cleanest and prettiest cities I ever saw. The Small villages in the Atlas Mountains were quite interesting. I hated Tangiers.

I used to enjoy exploring the Roman ruins at Volubilis

I had a very dear Berber Friend in Morocco. The Berbers are very distinct from the Arabs. I never could learn the Tamazight language it is very different from Arabic..

The Darija Arabic was difficult enough. I never realized how many dialects of Arabic there are until I got to Egypt and nobody understood a word I said
Strangely written Arabic is the same world wide. The major difference I find in the Arab Dialects is in the pronunciation which is quite extreme.

I do not recall seeing a Church in Fez. Fez at one time was considered to be a Holy city in Islam. It is a popular tourist spot for Muslims from around the world.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:24 AM
 
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Wa alaikum assalam, yes I have been many times to Marakech, and the Dra valley also the Atlas Mountains. I agree about Tangiers...it really is just another European city. Although the new port in Tangiers is supposed to be a good improvement to ferry services..but to be honest anything would be an improvement. I wasted so much time at the port waiting for a container to arrive from the UK...I avoid it like the plague unless there is no alternative.

Fez is lovely, the church is quite small and is hardly open now. coast wise I love Essaouria, not as built up as Agadir and has a lovely Souk, which is not as frenetic as the Souk in Marrakech.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,725,151 times
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Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Wa alaikum assalam, yes I have been many times to Marakech, and the Dra valley also the Atlas Mountains. I agree about Tangiers...it really is just another European city. Although the new port in Tangiers is supposed to be a good improvement to ferry services..but to be honest anything would be an improvement. I wasted so much time at the port waiting for a container to arrive from the UK...I avoid it like the plague unless there is no alternative.

Fez is lovely, the church is quite small and is hardly open now. coast wise I love Essaouria, not as built up as Agadir and has a lovely Souk, which is not as frenetic as the Souk in Marrakech.
I forgot all about Essauria, I seem to recall passing through it. but I do not seem to have any memory of it. The Dra Valley is quite remarkable. I'm an amateur fossil hunter and that is a treasure chest of trilobite fossils

My first time in Morocco was quite hectic. Mohammad V had just died and Moulay Hassan assumed the throne. the Berbers hated him and had surrounded Rabat threatening to burn the city down if he did not abdicate. Spanish and French morocco had just reluctantly united as one country and were on the the edge of civil war. Oil had been found and there were numerous border clashes with Algeria. It was like open war was going to break out at any moment. fortunately no major events although a village I was in had gotten shelled heavily by Algeria, my first taste of combat and I wasn't even supposed to be a participant. fortunately Peace returned very fast with no major casualties.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
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Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Hello, I am new here. As a Christian with many muslim friends, I recently read the Quran to better understand Islam. I have also researched a bit on Muhammed. I would like to know how do you distinguish what are words from God in the Quran and what are Muhammed's? There seem to be contradictions within the Quran.

Also if the Quran is seen by some to be the final book and follows the Bible, why does it change or use out of context much of the Bible?

When I ask my friends these things they say because this is what we are told is truth..there is a reluctance to discuss anything that may throw doubt on anything to do with Prophet Muhammed, who they accept as a flesh and blood man, and so surely as such he could be prone to the same weaknesses and errors as the rest of us. I'm hoping I may find some answers here.

Thank you for your time.

Quote:
how do you distinguish what are words from God in the Quran and what are Muhammed's?

Mhammed's words are called in arabic (hadith)
And What is the Difference Between the Qur’an and Hadith?
The difference between Qur
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:17 AM
 
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Thank you Weaam, I know the difference between the Hadiths and the Quran. Maybe I should have phrased my original question differently. How then as muslims do you deal with the inconsistencies in the Quran?
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Thank you Weaam, I know the difference between the Hadiths and the Quran. Maybe I should have phrased my original question differently. How then as muslims do you deal with the inconsistencies in the Quran?
What do you see as inconsistencies? May you give an example

I am aware of several things non-Muslims view as inconsistencies. each has to be addressed individually. to keep this from becoming an endless debate could you post a few you are aware of.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:20 PM
 
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5:46 Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

5:47 The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.

19:30 He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

The inconsistency I find here however is when we look at the New Testament, the book which is the Scripture of the Christians, nowhere does it make the claim that it is a book that was "given to Jesus". On the contrary, the New Testament consists of several books that were written by followers of Jesus (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) AFTER the ascension of Jesus.

So the Injil can EITHER be a book given to Jesus, OR it can be the book that the Christians hold as their Holy Scriptures, but it can't be both. Muhammad apparently assumed that the Scripture of the Christians (and Jews) would be very similar to the Quran, the book which he claimed he received from Allah. However, Muhammad was clearly ignorant of the matter. The essential nature of the Quran and the Bible are very different. A book "given to Jesus" in a similar way as Muhammad claims to have received the Quran does not exist and Christians have never claimed that such a book existed at any time. This claim of Sura 5:46 is merely a wrong idea that sprang from the mind of Muhammad. So if the Quran was indeed handed down verbatim from God surely God would have made this clear.

Had the statements like those found in Sura 5:46 and 19:30 been the only examples it might have been an option for Muslims to claim that the Injil of Jesus was simply lost. Jesus indeed received such a book but, somehow, it disappeared. Muslims could have said that the New Testament clearly is something very different from the Injil as defined by the Quran, and so could have concluded that therefore they do not believe in the Christian New Testament since the Quran does not endorse it.

But then the second set of statements above prevents this explanation. The Quran identifies the Injil as the Scripture of the Christians. So since the Injil is the book of the Christians, the Quran makes a wrong claim about the basic nature of the Injil. It neither is nor ever was a book given to Jesus by God.
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