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Old 11-06-2012, 12:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
. Even Christ, who was his son, led a life of simplicity. .
wrong input will result wrong output.
you are not really worshiping your creator
the creator does not have a son .

Quote:
Mohammed wants many wives
when he was at age 25 he married Khadija and she was 40 years old.
and she was his only wife until she died at age 65.
for 25 years he was with her only until he became 50 years old.
and he was a Prophet at age of 40.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Well I'm sure I can't see where she got that idea from...whoever she was.
from this verse
O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message.
Allah will protect thee from mankind.
Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk. The Noble Quran

Allah told him that he will protect him
that means no need for guards.

The prophet Muhammad (prayer and peace upon him ) used to have guards to protect him from any one want to kill him or hurt him
then he got a verse from Allah that Allah will protect him.
immediately he dismissed the guards.
for some one who is imposter and smart and could fool his people and all of the world he will not fool him self and he will not say such verse and he will not for any reason dismiss his guard.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:38 PM
 
762 posts, read 986,775 times
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Quote:
wrong input will result wrong output.
you are not really worshiping your creator
the creator does not have a son .
So say you, but it is you who are mistaken..

Matthew 17:5

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Luke 3:22

and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Luke 1:35

35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the [a]holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Quote:
when he was at age 25 he married Khadija and she was 40 years old.
and she was his only wife until she died at age 65.
for 25 years he was with her only until he became 50 years old.
and he was a Prophet at age of 40.
This statement does not alter the fact that Mohammed is said to have had in excess of twelve wives, by Islamic sources and most muslims I know of would not dispute it. Regardless of what reasons put forward as to why he felt the need for so many wives. It goes against Gods wishes. As the following verses attest to...

Matthew 19:1-6

19 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

And of Solomon..who muslims like to quote as an example of polygamy being an accepted practice in the Bible..

1 Kings 11:1-10

Solomon Turns from the Lord

11 Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2 from the nations concerning which the Lord had said to the people of Israel, “You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3 He had 700 wives, who were princesses, and 300 concubines. And his wives turned away his heart. 4 For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not wholly follow the Lord, as David his father had done. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8 And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their Gods.

9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not keep what the Lord commanded.

Muhammed went against Gods wishes by advocating polygamy, he also went against the Quran, which as he said was word of God. That up to four wives were allowed to men in Islam, yet he had many more, apparently by special permission from Allah. I can't help but wonder, why..if God had made it clear to mankind that polygamy was an afront to him, did Mohammed reintroduce it. Does God make mistakes? No he does not.

Yet maybe polygamy was practiced as a tradition among the tribes of Arabia at that time, so I don't see it as a revelation from God, but rather a local tradition.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:42 PM
 
762 posts, read 986,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
from this verse
O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message.
Allah will protect thee from mankind.
Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk. The Noble Quran

Allah told him that he will protect him
that means no need for guards.

The prophet Muhammad (prayer and peace upon him ) used to have guards to protect him from any one want to kill him or hurt him
then he got a verse from Allah that Allah will protect him.
immediately he dismissed the guards.
for some one who is imposter and smart and could fool his people and all of the world he will not fool him self and he will not say such verse and he will not for any reason dismiss his guard.
There again this is supposition...why would God protect him from harm, when God never protected other prophets that went before him. Then again seeing as Mohammed met his death by murder by way of poison, it would seem that Allah had not been honest in his promise to protect him.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:15 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,650,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
So say you, but it is you who are mistaken..

Matthew 17:5

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Luke 3:22

and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Luke 1:35

35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the [a]holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

is Adam also the son of God?

Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.
He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli … the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God
[Luke 3:23-38]

is Israel also son of God?

“Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son
[Exodus 4:22]
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
is Adam also the son of God?

Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.
He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli … the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God
[Luke 3:23-38]

is Israel also son of God?

“Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son
[Exodus 4:22]
To understand the Christian viewpoint as Jesus being the son of God, you will have to think on the biblical meaning of the term "Son". To understand the Biblical meaning of Jesus as "the Son of God", lets look at the Biblical use of the word "son". In the Bible, "son" is a term expressing an intimate relationship with someone or something, it can indicate origin, but it is also used to express close association or identification with persons or things. Even when indicating origin, this term does not limit oneself to one's father and mother. One may be called the "son" of the following: his father and mother, his family, his tribe, his people, his place of birth (city or country), and the time or circumstance of his birth. The basic requirement of the "son" is to honour and obey his "father", but he should also love him and emulate him.

Biblically speaking, Jesus' Sonship does not rest upon His being born of the virgin Mary. But His virgin birth rests upon His Sonship. Before Mary ever was, the Son of God is. Jesus does not become the Son of God, but the Son of God becomes Jesus. So Jesus, as the Son, speaks to the Father about "the glory I had with You before the world began" (see John 17:5; and Colossians 1:13-20), long before Mary ever was. This eternal Son of God entered into the limitations of time and space by the power of God working through the virgin Mary and was born as a man, called Jesus.

By the same token Jesus is not the Son of God because of His mighty works and wonderful words. Rather, He does His mighty works and speaks His wonderful words because He is the Son of God.

There are a great many verses in the Bible that refers and implies Jesus sonship, even from Jesus himself. Maybe you should read some of them and compare. The Quran contradicts itself with its view of Jesus. There is no denying that the Quran rejects the Deity of Jesus. But, the Quran attributes titles, qualities and functions to Christ which shows that he is indeed God. Other titles given to Christ which affirm his essential Deity include the Word of God and a Spirit from God.

You may answer this by saying that Jesus was given the ability to create and give life by Gods permission, as the passages themselves state.That he didn't have this ability within himself. But this response doesn't solve the contradiction. Why would God grant Jesus the abilities and characteristics of Deity? Why is God permitting Jesus to perfectly fit the description and fulfill the criteria which places one within the category of God?

Also, the expression "by God's permission" doesn't necessarily mean that Christ was given abilities he did not already have. The statements can be understood in light of the biblical teaching that Christ did nothing on his own initiative, but did everything in perfect union with his Father's will.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
To understand the Christian viewpoint as Jesus being the son of God, you will have to think on the biblical meaning of the term "Son". To understand the Biblical meaning of Jesus as "the Son of God", lets look at the Biblical use of the word "son". In the Bible, "son" is a term expressing an intimate relationship with someone or something, it can indicate origin, but it is also used to express close association or identification with persons or things. Even when indicating origin, this term does not limit oneself to one's father and mother. One may be called the "son" of the following: his father and mother, his family, his tribe, his people, his place of birth (city or country), and the time or circumstance of his birth. The basic requirement of the "son" is to honour and obey his "father", but he should also love him and emulate him.

Biblically speaking, Jesus' Sonship does not rest upon His being born of the virgin Mary. But His virgin birth rests upon His Sonship. Before Mary ever was, the Son of God is. Jesus does not become the Son of God, but the Son of God becomes Jesus. So Jesus, as the Son, speaks to the Father about "the glory I had with You before the world began" (see John 17:5; and Colossians 1:13-20), long before Mary ever was. This eternal Son of God entered into the limitations of time and space by the power of God working through the virgin Mary and was born as a man, called Jesus.

By the same token Jesus is not the Son of God because of His mighty works and wonderful words. Rather, He does His mighty works and speaks His wonderful words because He is the Son of God.

There are a great many verses in the Bible that refers and implies Jesus sonship, even from Jesus himself. Maybe you should read some of them and compare. The Quran contradicts itself with its view of Jesus. There is no denying that the Quran rejects the Deity of Jesus. But, the Quran attributes titles, qualities and functions to Christ which shows that he is indeed God. Other titles given to Christ which affirm his essential Deity include the Word of God and a Spirit from God.

You may answer this by saying that Jesus was given the ability to create and give life by Gods permission, as the passages themselves state.That he didn't have this ability within himself. But this response doesn't solve the contradiction. Why would God grant Jesus the abilities and characteristics of Deity? Why is God permitting Jesus to perfectly fit the description and fulfill the criteria which places one within the category of God?

Also, the expression "by God's permission" doesn't necessarily mean that Christ was given abilities he did not already have. The statements can be understood in light of the biblical teaching that Christ did nothing on his own initiative, but did everything in perfect union with his Father's will.
Except the only verification of Jesus(as) being the "Son of God" is the Christian Bible. In particular the NT and misinterpreted Jewish Scripture.

It all comes down to being one of us is right the other is wrong and we are both convinced the other is wrong.
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Except the only verification of Jesus(as) being the "Son of God" is the Christian Bible. In particular the NT and misinterpreted Jewish Scripture.
Well it's stood the test of time for two thousand years, so it's good enough for me.

I've yet to see conclusive proof that the Bible has been, misinterpreted, corrupted or its message changed beyond its original purpose.

I don't see that the Quran can offer any firmer proof that it is was it claims to be. So we are indeed left with one wrong option and one right. as neither one of us is set for change one will possibly be disappointed...but if God is how I believe him to be, then he has love enough for both of us.
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Then again seeing as Mohammed met his death by murder by way of poison, .

he died after 4 years and his message was completed and he has to die one day any way.
“This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you,
and have chosen for you Islam as your religion” The Noble Quran.


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Old 11-07-2012, 03:05 PM
 
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And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken (to Himself) a son.
Certainly you have made an abominable assertion
The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces,
That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent Allah.
And it is not worthy of the Beneficent Allah that He should take (to Himself) a son.
There is no one in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Beneficent Allah as a servant.
Certainly He has a comprehensive knowledge of them and He has numbered them a (comprehensive) numbering.
And every one of them will come to Him on the day of resurrection alone. Noble Quran.

******************************

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)
But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah).
And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them. The Noble Quran.

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