U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Easter!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Unread 11-11-2012, 01:51 PM
 
747 posts, read 256,021 times
Reputation: 195
That's the thing...God worked his power through Moses and his staff for a reason, to prove Moses credibility as a prophet, which was important to Gods plan. There was always a reason behind each and every miracle and none I believed were issued lightly.

What reason for the clay birds..what was it trying to prove? It would seem nothing more than a party trick. God does not do party tricks.

How do you know of other miracles that were not included... If they were not reported how can we know they happened?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Unread 11-12-2012, 12:32 PM
Status: "LEARNING THAT SPRING TIME IS FICTION IN ND" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Marion, North Dakota
7,603 posts, read 2,569,385 times
Reputation: 2256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
That's the thing...God worked his power through Moses and his staff for a reason, to prove Moses credibility as a prophet, which was important to Gods plan. There was always a reason behind each and every miracle and none I believed were issued lightly.

What reason for the clay birds..what was it trying to prove? It would seem nothing more than a party trick. God does not do party tricks.

How do you know of other miracles that were not included... If they were not reported how can we know they happened?
All miracles were/are to give testimony of God(swt) and as evidence of Prophet-hood. Since we do not know the full story of the clay bird miracle, we can only surmise it was given as evidence Jesus(as) was a true Prophet.

Perhaps it is an error for us to say we "know" Jesus(as) performed many miracles we do not know about, "we believe he performed many miracles" would probably be a better choice of words as we can not know without the specifics. but, there is evidence he performed miracles that were not recorded. Such as he had a large following who had seen him perform miracles. It is probable many saw different miracles, not every witness saw the same ones. We also know large crowds came to him for hearings, it is dougtful if many would continue to ask for healing if they had not seen him do it many times.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 11-12-2012, 03:14 PM
 
747 posts, read 256,021 times
Reputation: 195
Yes miracles are by the grace of God, but we none of us know the full story, as we were not there. But based on what we are told we arrive at our own suppositions. On that basis it may well be Jesus preformed more miracles than were reported. I'm pretty sure if he did they would not be along the lines of party tricks, such as breathing life into clay birds, and this supposedly when he was a child. It would have to have meant something, or as a lesson for mankind.

Jesus started his ministry at age thirty, before that time why would there have been a need to prove himself with miracles.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 11-12-2012, 03:47 PM
Status: "LEARNING THAT SPRING TIME IS FICTION IN ND" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Marion, North Dakota
7,603 posts, read 2,569,385 times
Reputation: 2256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Yes miracles are by the grace of God, but we none of us know the full story, as we were not there. But based on what we are told we arrive at our own suppositions. On that basis it may well be Jesus preformed more miracles than were reported. I'm pretty sure if he did they would not be along the lines of party tricks, such as breathing life into clay birds, and this supposedly when he was a child. It would have to have meant something, or as a lesson for mankind.

Jesus started his ministry at age thirty, before that time why would there have been a need to prove himself with miracles.
Without the miracles, from the time of his birth, His mother would have been stoned to death.

His public ministry may have begun at the age of 30 but prior to then He had to prepare for his Ministry. As a child His knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures seemed to be quite miraculous to the scholars. A good possibility is the Miracles at a young age were to let him know he was a true Prophet.

The so called "Infancy Gospels" along with the gnostic gospels and the apocryphal books were taught in the early church until The Greek segment decided they were heresy. How does any one know for certain it wasn't the heretics that won and the true books suppressed?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 11-12-2012, 04:29 PM
 
747 posts, read 256,021 times
Reputation: 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Without the miracles, from the time of his birth, His mother would have been stoned to death.

His public ministry may have begun at the age of 30 but prior to then He had to prepare for his Ministry. As a child His knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures seemed to be quite miraculous to the scholars. A good possibility is the Miracles at a young age were to let him know he was a true Prophet.

The so called "Infancy Gospels" along with the gnostic gospels and the apocryphal books were taught in the early church until The Greek segment decided they were heresy. How does any one know for certain it wasn't the heretics that won and the true books suppressed?
I thought we were talking the miracles that Jesus did.. The miracle of his birth and all the portents surrounding it were not through Jesus, but because of him. It's true it's said his knowledge of the scriptures were said to be beyond his years, was that in itself a miracle, or simply Jesus being himself.

As for heresy, well this has plagued religions from time and memorial, the very nature of religion people will see what they wish to see, sometimes God and ones faith can be lost amongst the pages of rules of religion. Throughout the ages people have died for their beliefs, many still do today. Does God ask or even want this? I don't believe he does. We can debate till the cows come home about who left what out where and why, but I don't think it would change what we know to be true in our hearts. Obviously you see a different truth to my own. I don't see that as a issue as I believe God does not put labels on people, we are all part of his glorious creation and as such he loves us all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 11-12-2012, 05:42 PM
Status: "LEARNING THAT SPRING TIME IS FICTION IN ND" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Marion, North Dakota
7,603 posts, read 2,569,385 times
Reputation: 2256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
I thought we were talking the miracles that Jesus did.. The miracle of his birth and all the portents surrounding it were not through Jesus, but because of him. It's true it's said his knowledge of the scriptures were said to be beyond his years, was that in itself a miracle, or simply Jesus being himself.

As for heresy, well this has plagued religions from time and memorial, the very nature of religion people will see what they wish to see, sometimes God and ones faith can be lost amongst the pages of rules of religion. Throughout the ages people have died for their beliefs, many still do today. Does God ask or even want this? I don't believe he does. We can debate till the cows come home about who left what out where and why, but I don't think it would change what we know to be true in our hearts. Obviously you see a different truth to my own. I don't see that as a issue as I believe God does not put labels on people, we are all part of his glorious creation and as such he loves us all.
No disagreement there. You are correct we know what is true in our hearts, However, that can be influenced by our experiences.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 11-12-2012, 05:50 PM
 
7,692 posts, read 2,096,916 times
Reputation: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
There is a sura in the Quran dealing with the story of Jesus making birds of clay and breathing life into them, I know I have read this but cannot recall the sura.

I wondered at the time where this came from as it was not in the Bible, so I checked and found the story in one of the Apocryphal gospels, that of The infancy Gospel of Thomas...

III. 1 Now Jesus made of that clay twelve sparrows: and it was the Sabbath day. And a child ran and told Joseph, saying: Behold, thy child playeth about the brook, and hath made sparrows of the clay, which is not lawful. 2 And he when he heard it went and said to the child: Wherefore doest thou so and profaneth the Sabbath? But Jesus answered him not, but looked upon the sparrows and said: Go ye, take your flight, and remember me in your life. And at the word they took flight and went up into the air. And when Joseph saw it he was astonished.

Source The Infancy Gospel of Thomas

It's not certain that the Gnostic gospels are reliable. Interesting tho.
It came from muhammed's mind. It's not actually real.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 11-12-2012, 06:21 PM
Status: "LEARNING THAT SPRING TIME IS FICTION IN ND" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Marion, North Dakota
7,603 posts, read 2,569,385 times
Reputation: 2256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
It came from muhammed's mind. It's not actually real.
Do you think Jesus(as) could have done such if God(as) had desired him to?

Can you tell me why the Gospel of Thomas or the other scriptures that mention the clay bird were not accepted as canon, although they were believed to be by the early Christians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 11-13-2012, 04:35 AM
 
747 posts, read 256,021 times
Reputation: 195
Although the Gospel of Thomas is perhaps the earliest, most popular, and best "Gnostic" Gospel around, it does not belong in the New Testament since it was written in the second century at a time when all of the apostles of Christianity had already died. It shows its dependence on a good deal of New Testament writings, which were acknowledged and in wide use by the time Thomas wrote his "Gospel". I think it comes down to lack of provenance and popularity of use at the time. With no references or witnesses I guess it was thought unreliable.

This is a different Gospel to the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas", from which the clay birds fable along with other were taken from. I don't think the Infancy Gospel was never even considered, due to its nature..and again it's lack of any real proof. It's the same as someone coming along 600 years after the event writing a bunch of stories and calling it a Gospel.

I can see where Mohammed would have got the story from, as they were in widespread circulation in that part of the world and were indeed read by the early Christians. I always imagine what Christianity could have been like in its early days. The void left by the death of Jesus, there must have been a great number of stories in circulation, sometimes thats what people do, to cope with the death of someone who has great meaning, talking of them makes it feel if they are still alive. Which of course Jesus was, but not everyone realised that at the time...purely conjecture on my part you understand. trying to put a human spin on things...

The Bible needed to be standardised in order for people to understand it. It never claims to be direct word of God, but that does not mean that it does not have Gods hand in it. It does...it's divinely inspired, by God directly, and his influence through Christ and the Holy Spirit. It offers complete guidance for how mankind needs to live ones life in order to achieve Gods love for all eternity. Not everyone sees this, and we are all blessed with a free will to find our own path in life. We often abandon God, but God never abandons us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 11-13-2012, 04:37 AM
 
747 posts, read 256,021 times
Reputation: 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
It came from muhammed's mind. It's not actually real.
Well I knew that...but the idea was in someone else's mind before his.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $74,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:01 PM.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top