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Old 11-21-2012, 01:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
There is no disagreement here..I said Christians look upon God as ONE, and worship God accordingly. This is the problem as you see three separate beings, we do not see the trinity as three separate beings as they are part of the whole.

Again you produce your evidence from a purely Islam source, of course that will only give you the prove you want to see...as a muslim.. That doesn't in itself make it true or reliable.
.
So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19
in the above verse if you do not see two separate beings then that would be because you do not want to unlock your heart to the truth.
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts? Quran 47:24
Quote:
I take more seriously than one man appearing on the scene 600 years after the Bible in its accepted form was in wide use...and says its not so
that man is a messenger from the one who created you.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:45 PM
 
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Quote:
What in the Qur'an do you want to see proof of?
Proof that Mohammed truely received his message from God. Seeing as so much of the Quran not only contradicts the Bible, which is supposed to follow on from, but its often clear that when referring to Biblical facts that they are very possibly found in other sources, and not reliable ones either. I just can't believe God would have changed his message to mankind to such an extent.

Quote:
Where is there proof of the Trinity from a non-Christian Source?
Well now that is just as hard as finding evidence for many claims of the Quran from anywhere other than an Islamic source. Biblical evidence is enough for me.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19
in the above verse if you do not see two separate beings then that would be because you do not want to unlock your heart to the truth.
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts? Quran 47:24
that man is a messenger from the one who created you.
Jesus was a flesh and blood man on earth, his spirit is at one with God, his father. Jesus was an empty vessel which God filled with his spirit to do his will. They are one and the same.

God is beyond our human comprehension, there is more to God than we will ever be able to understand. To imply that God begot a son by Mary, as it does so in the Quran, is very offensive to Christians. That is another reason that I cannot see the Quran as Gods word. God knows the creation of Jesus, why would he put words in Mohammed's mouth that imply a human union with Mary to produce his son ..Jesus.. God would know Jesus was always with him.

I don't wish to appear rude, you believe Mohammed was the final prophet of God, I respect your right to believe what you feel is right for you, as it should be for everyone. But from my perspective Mohammed fails to measure up as a Prophet for all mankind on a number of points. I believe he may well have been entrusted with Gods message, but for his people, to bring them away from paganism and to God.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Proof that Mohammed truely received his message from God. Seeing as so much of the Quran not only contradicts the Bible, which is supposed to follow on from, but its often clear that when referring to Biblical facts that they are very possibly found in other sources, and not reliable ones either. I just can't believe God would have changed his message to mankind to such an extent.
God(swt) change the message. Man did. either intentionally or accidentally. For example the OT if you interpreted the Torah and the Psalms the same way the Jews interpret it, you would not be able to be a Christian. so either Christians have changed the meaning or the Jews have or both have. In any case there is disagreement over the meaning of what was written. If man had kept the interpretations correct there would have been no need for the Qur'an. But it got messed up and the contradictions are the places were the past scriptures went astray.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Well now that is just as hard as finding evidence for many claims of the Quran from anywhere other than an Islamic source. Biblical evidence is enough for me.
Gair enough. Likewise the Qur'an is evidence enough for me.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Jesus was a flesh and blood man on earth, his spirit is at one with God, his father. Jesus was an empty vessel which God filled with his spirit to do his will. They are one and the same. .
how could be they are one when they are sitting next to each other according to the bible.

and here are more verses proof that they are not one and they are not the same unless you stretch their meaning
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father,
for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28


My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a];
no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. John 10:29


By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. John 5:30

Quote:
To imply that God begot a son by Mary, as it does so in the Quran, is very offensive to Christians. That is another reason that I cannot see the Quran as Gods word. God knows the creation of Jesus
how Jesus was born according to your believe?
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:48 AM
 
762 posts, read 987,712 times
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Quote:
God(swt) change the message. Man did. either intentionally or accidentally. For example the OT if you interpreted the Torah and the Psalms the same way the Jews interpret it, you would not be able to be a Christian. so either Christians have changed the meaning or the Jews have or both have. In any case there is disagreement over the meaning of what was written. If man had kept the interpretations correct there would have been no need for the Qur'an. But it got messed up and the contradictions are the places were the past scriptures went astray.
Well I am starting to doubt that Allah is at all the same God as the Bible at all The New Testament was sent to show the people the error of their ways and through Christ were shown a new way to Gods love and salvation. That message is still pretty clear to me, the New Testament shows that love and tolerance of others puts us on the right path to God, it is for everyone, no matter where they are in the world. Whereas the Quran seems to take us back to the Old Testament days, back to violence and intolerance. I could not see much of Gods love in the version of the Quran I read, and seeing as you claim all are the same, then I guess you are all reading the same. Maybe the trick of being a muslim is being shown how to interpret the various suras that seem so much at odds with the New Testament.

I'm not sure where Gods message in the Bible got messed up or went astray, and I would like to see the proof of this, other than Mohammed's alleged claims that the Bible was not fit for purpose according to God.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:59 AM
 
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Quote:
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father,
for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28


My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a];
no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. John 10:29


By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. John 5:30
"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you. ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,'" (John 14:28).

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. As i think i mentioned already Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

Jesus has two natures. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father. He had added to Himself human nature, He became a man to die for people to be saved.

Think of this comparison which can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically speaking, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, and they work together by love.

Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law...namely, sinners...us.


Quote:
how Jesus was born according to your believe?
The Birth of Jesus Christ

18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,c because he will save his people from their sins.”

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”, which means, “God with us.”

24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Very similar to the Quran's ... but it is the Holy Spirit of God not a Angel who placed the child in Mary's womb. Only God has the power of creation.
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. As i think i mentioned already Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.".

and when he went up and sat next to God

was he also a man in Heaven or God ?

because trinity is a false thing and not in the Bible when you try to make it correct you make the Bible Contradictory.



Quote:
but it is the Holy Spirit of God not a Angel who placed the child in Mary's womb. Only God has the power of creation.
And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:
We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples. The Noble Quran.
Our spirit = the spirit of Allah

Jesus is the spirit of Allah.





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Old 11-23-2012, 03:40 AM
 
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truth teller, maybe this will help you to understand, that tho the word TRINITY was not mentioned in the Bible, it's still clear how God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit exist in unity together and had done from the beginning. This is from ..

John 14 NIV - Jesus Comforts His Disciples - it may be a bit long but it gives the viewpoint of Jesus and how he saw his relationship as part of the trinity.

Quote:
Jesus Comforts His Disciples

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus the Way to the Father

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

“Come now; let us leave.
Quote:
Our spirit = the spirit of Allah

Jesus is the spirit of Allah.
This statement implies Jesus was God. So he can't be another prophet like Mohammed, as Mohammed was a man born of two earthly parents the normal way. If you claim that Jesus is the Spirit of Allah then you can't say he was just a prophet like all those prophets that had gone before him.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:31 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,652,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
This statement implies Jesus was God. So he can't be another prophet like Mohammed, as Mohammed was a man born of two earthly parents the normal way. If you claim that Jesus is the Spirit of Allah then you can't say he was just a prophet like all those prophets that had gone before him.

Jesus is also the word of Allah but that does not make him God or son of God.
i pray to the one who created you to clarify the truth for you.
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