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Old 11-22-2012, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Don't see the relevance of this analogy. Sorry.

How that shows that Jesus did not die..I'm sure I can't see it. But take it that he did not die...what happened next. Do you think that after the fake Jesus was removed from the cross for burial no one noticed the switch.
We do believe most of the people who witnessed the crucifixion did believe it was Jesus(as) who was crucified.

as for if there were any witnesses who actually knew Jesus(as) and were aware that was not Jesus(as). It would be probable they would have not said anything. The two places were that is mentioned are in the Gospel of Peter (Which was considered heretical and removed)and the Gospel of Baranabas (which many Christians believe is a Medieval forgery-Written in the 1400's) in both Gospels Peter and others saw Jesus in a tree watching the Crucifixion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
But the biggest no no for me in the whole idea of a duplicate Jesus..is the fact this makes God out to be a deceiver and a cheat. I cannot attribute characteristics like this to the God I know and love and hold in the highest esteem.
God(swt) did not deceive, it was the ones doing the crucifying that deceived themselves.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:26 AM
 
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which many Christians believe is a Medieval forgery-Written in the 1400's)
I think you could say the majority.. Not many. The evidence is pretty conclusive that the Gospel of Barnabas, which muslims believe to be a true account of Jesus life and teachings, is indeed a 14th century forgery, well not a forgery as such..but it was certainly written in the 14th century so on that basis it can't claim to be a factual account based on any witness testimony. At best it could be considered the authors opinion.

As you are probably aware this gospel is a completely different work to the Epistle of Barnabas. The Epistle of Barnabas is an ancient Christian book which teaches about the lordship, death and resurrection of Jesus. The Epistle of Barnabas is freely available and thoroughly Christian. The distinction between these two books needs to be understood because sometimes people confuse them; they think that a reference to the Epistle of Barnabas is a reference to the Gospel of Barnabas, but it is not.

Quote:
God(swt) did not deceive, it was the ones doing the crucifying that deceived themselves.
How does that work Woodrow..

If I tricked someone into believing something was true that was not..then I would be deceiving them.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
I think you could say the majority.. Not many. The evidence is pretty conclusive that the Gospel of Barnabas, which muslims believe to be a true account of Jesus life and teachings, is indeed a 14th century forgery, well not a forgery as such..but it was certainly written in the 14th century so on that basis it can't claim to be a factual account based on any witness testimony. At best it could be considered the authors opinion.

As you are probably aware this gospel is a completely different work to the Epistle of Barnabas. The Epistle of Barnabas is an ancient Christian book which teaches about the lordship, death and resurrection of Jesus. The Epistle of Barnabas is freely available and thoroughly Christian. The distinction between these two books needs to be understood because sometimes people confuse them; they think that a reference to the Epistle of Barnabas is a reference to the Gospel of Barnabas, but it is not.



How does that work Woodrow..

If I tricked someone into believing something was true that was not..then I would be deceiving them.
We really do not know how it occurred that the people believed they were crucifying Jesus(as) and it was another person instead.

Too often the translators have added their own interpretations.

Here are four translations commonly used.

ABDLH.YUSUF ALI: That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

MUHD M.W.PICKTHALL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger – they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

M.H.SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

MOHSIN KHAN: And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Īsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of 'Īsa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Īsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)

If you read it in Arabic it reads:

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا

I can not find any explanation in the Arabic how the people thought somebody else was Jesus and find the Pickthall translation to be about the same as how I personally translate it.

My own translation of the Arabic is:

And because they said: "We killed the Messiah, the Prophet Jesus, son of Mary" and they did not kill him nor crucify him, but it appeared so to them; and those who disagree concerning it are in doubt; they have no knowledge save pursuit of an opinion; it is certain they did not kill Him.

But I am not a scholar in Arabic and do not claim to be. That is simply what I understand when I read it in Arabic. i do not see any deceit or deception. I see it as people allowing their own desires to have led them into an error. They wanted to kill Jesus, killed somebody they thought was Jesus and believe they did kill him.

But that is all my own opinion. Astagfirullah (If I am wrong, may Allaah forgive me)

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 11-22-2012 at 12:25 PM..
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:27 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,650,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
But the biggest no no for me in the whole idea of a duplicate Jesus..is the fact this makes God out to be a deceiver and a cheat. I cannot attribute characteristics like this to the God I know and love and hold in the highest esteem.
what if the one that Allah made him look Jesus is the the one who wanted to have Jesus to be killed?

Quote:
How that shows that Jesus did not die..I'm sure I can't see it. But take it that he did not die...what happened next. Do you think that after the fake Jesus was removed from the cross for burial no one noticed the switch.
they have noticed that the face is the face of Jesus but the body is not the same body
and i think they did not care too much but they did have doubt.
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger – they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them;
and lo! those who disagree concerning it
are in doubt thereof;
they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture;
they slew him not for certain. The Noble Quran
if woud like to read the stories of the prophets in according to Islamic history here is a bookprophets-stories


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Old 11-23-2012, 03:54 AM
 
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Quote:
We really do not know how it occurred that the people believed they were crucifying Jesus(as) and it was another person instead.
That's the problem Woodrow, on that basis it can't be taken as the gospel truth (no pun intended) that things went this way.

They did want to kill him, for many reasons...and kill him they did. Because first and foremost it was ordained by God. If it was ordained by God, and the scriptures give every reason to suppose this was so, as it makes perfect sense in the grand scheme of things. There is absolutely nothing to be gained in substituting another in the place of Jesus.

More likely after reading the Quran and seeing how many muslims seem to see Allah, giving him human behavoral characteristics. It could be that if God held Jesus in esteem it would be unthinkable to them that he would sacrifice him to such a seemingly ignoble death. So an alternative version which seems more in keeping with a merciful God. However that only works if you see Jesus as just a prophet and not in anyway divine.

As I see Jesus as divine in nature, the whole crucifixion thing makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:01 AM
 
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Quote:
what if the one that Allah made him look Jesus is the the one who wanted to have Jesus to be killed?
This would make no difference whatsoever, it would still mean God was a cheat and deceiver...which he most definitely is NOT.

Quote:
they have noticed that the face is the face of Jesus but the body is not the same body
and i think they did not care too much but they did have doubt.
NOT CARE TOO MUCH!!! Of course they would care. Mary his mother helped wash and wrap his body after his earthly death. Do you think any mother would not know her own son?

Thank you for the link. I will read it.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:21 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,650,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
This would make no difference whatsoever, it would still mean God was a cheat and deceiver...which he most definitely is NOT.
you are not logical here and i think that is becuase you link the word deceive to Allah
but the picture is not like this
those who wanted to kill Jesus are the deceivers and Allah planned to fail their plot
And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah. The Noble Quran.
Quote:
NOT CARE TOO MUCH!!! Of course they would care. Mary his mother helped wash and wrap his body after his earthly death. Do you think any mother would not know her own son?
when i said they did not care too much i mean the soldiers and not the mother
any way what i said is only one of the possibilities

Quote:
Thank you for the link. I will read it.
you are welcome
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:01 PM
 
762 posts, read 986,565 times
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Quote:
you are not logical here and i think that is becuase you link the word deceive to Allah
but the picture is not like this
those who wanted to kill Jesus are the deceivers and Allah planned to fail their plot
And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah. The Noble Quran.
Quote:
What's not logical is making God out to be a trickster.. Which ever spin you put on it the result is the same, if God made people believe something that was not true, it means God had deceived them. Even if it was done for the noblest of reasons it is still a deceit. Besides if the crucifixion was Gods will, and everything happens by Gods will, then there would be no need for a substitute in fact any other person in place of Christ would not have any meaning.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
What's not logical is making God out to be a trickster.. Which ever spin you put on it the result is the same, if God made people believe something that was not true, it means God had deceived them. Even if it was done for the noblest of reasons it is still a deceit. Besides if the crucifixion was Gods will, and everything happens by Gods will, then there would be no need for a substitute in fact any other person in place of Christ would not have any meaning.
That is the point, the crucifixion had no meaning other than somebody was brutally killed.

I think the reason why we can not see eye-to- eye on the crucifixion. It makes sense to those who believe it was necessary for the salvation of man. To those of us who believe God(swt) saves us simply by forgiving us when we are sincerely repenting, no sacrifice was needed and there was no sacrifice.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:12 AM
 
762 posts, read 986,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is the point, the crucifixion had no meaning other than somebody was brutally killed.

I think the reason why we can not see eye-to- eye on the crucifixion. It makes sense to those who believe it was necessary for the salvation of man. To those of us who believe God(swt) saves us simply by forgiving us when we are sincerely repenting, no sacrifice was needed and there was no sacrifice.
This again means that God has a complete change of heart. The Old Testament God required blood sacrifice for sin. Why would God establish a blood sacrifice in the Old Testament, and require it, if it meant nothing?

"For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." Leviticus 17:11, NIV

Man is, by very nature, sinful. We were made in the image of God, but every man and woman, beginning with Adam and Eve, has chosen to disobey Him. After Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they were separated from God, alienated by His holiness. Being sorry was not good enough. Repentance did not cover their sin. God can not and did not look the other way when man sinned because he is a just God. Jesus was a sinless man, the Quran recognises this as a fact, for this reason he was the lamb of God, a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Jesus was Gods blood sacrifice for our sins, the final blood sacrifice which started a new covenant with God.

What about the sheep at Eid? Is that not a form of blood sacrifice in thanks to Allah.

I do not see if good deeds alone can ever be payment enough for sin, but I guess it won't do any harm.
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