U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-26-2012, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
This again means that God has a complete change of heart. The Old Testament God required blood sacrifice for sin. Why would God establish a blood sacrifice in the Old Testament, and require it, if it meant nothing?

"For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." Leviticus 17:11, NIV

Man is, by very nature, sinful. We were made in the image of God, but every man and woman, beginning with Adam and Eve, has chosen to disobey Him. After Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they were separated from God, alienated by His holiness. Being sorry was not good enough. Repentance did not cover their sin. God can not and did not look the other way when man sinned because he is a just God. Jesus was a sinless man, the Quran recognises this as a fact, for this reason he was the lamb of God, a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Jesus was Gods blood sacrifice for our sins, the final blood sacrifice which started a new covenant with God.

What about the sheep at Eid? Is that not a form of blood sacrifice in thanks to Allah.

I do not see if good deeds alone can ever be payment enough for sin, but I guess it won't do any harm.
We so nor believe good deeds will get a person into heaven. All of the Good deeds all mankind ever did would not get 1 person even a glimpse of heaven That comes only from Allaah(swt)'s forgiveness. In his mercy he forgives those who repent with sincerity.

While we believe all good deeds will be rewarded, The reward for those that do not ask Allaah(swt) for forgiveness will be in this world only.

The sacrifice on Eid-ul-adha is the giving of charity this is the Thanking we give Allaah(swt). 1/3 of the slaughtered animal goes to feed the poor, 1/3 is to be shared with the community and 1/3 goes to the owner of the animal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-26-2012, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,768,019 times
Reputation: 9292
"There fore there is no basis for Christianity" ?

Why do Muslims and others believe that the bases of Christianity is contained in the idea of the resurrection? I don't get it. Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ- not on virgin birth- and not on rising from the dead. Is Islam based on the resurrection of Mohamed? No - of course not...Yet you respect him and not Christ?

I spoke to a Muslim the other day and suggested if there is such a hate for Christians and Jews among some of them...Then perhaps they should tear the pages out of the Koran that mention Jesus the Christ? The Muslim was resistant to the idea...I thought that it made some Muslims look bad...That Mohamed respected Jesus but they don't?

As for the trial of Christ the rebel against the Roman occupiers...He may have intentionally manipulated the Romans into executing him in order to strengthen the movement...Or he may have been to drunk to protect himself...as for being killed...It may be that Joesph of Aramethia who took possession of the body..was NOT his uncle by his father..there is also the chance he was not fully dead and recovered from his wounds.

None of this removes the divine nature of this brilliant and holy man...who as a prophet and teacher out shone Mohamed ...Mohamed understood how important Christ was-Muslims have forgotten.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-26-2012, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
"There fore there is no basis for Christianity" ?

Why do Muslims and others believe that the bases of Christianity is contained in the idea of the resurrection? I don't get it. Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ- not on virgin birth- and not on rising from the dead. Is Islam based on the resurrection of Mohamed? No - of course not...Yet you respect him and not Christ?

I spoke to a Muslim the other day and suggested if there is such a hate for Christians and Jews among some of them...Then perhaps they should tear the pages out of the Koran that mention Jesus the Christ? The Muslim was resistant to the idea...I thought that it made some Muslims look bad...That Mohamed respected Jesus but they don't?

As for the trial of Christ the rebel against the Roman occupiers...He may have intentionally manipulated the Romans into executing him in order to strengthen the movement...Or he may have been to drunk to protect himself...as for being killed...It may be that Joesph of Aramethia who took possession of the body..was NOT his uncle by his father..there is also the chance he was not fully dead and recovered from his wounds.

None of this removes the divine nature of this brilliant and holy man...who as a prophet and teacher out shone Mohamed ...Mohamed understood how important Christ was-Muslims have forgotten.
While it is possible some Muslims have forgotten Jesus(as) is one of the most loved of Prophets, Many of us acknowledge such by saying or writing (as) after his name. Also we are to obey all of the Prophets including Jesus(as) We do believe Jesus(as) is the Messiah, which means "Anointed one" but he is not the "Son of God" nor part of any Trinity.

You may want to read THIS
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2012, 07:56 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,187 times
Reputation: 54
In The Name of The One and Only God, The Eternal, The Righteous, The Owner Of Sovereignty, The Lord Of Majesty And Bounty, The Self-Sufficient, The Supreme, The Self-Subsisting In Whom All Subsist. The Peace Be Upon You, Everyone.


Quote:
The trouble I have with point one...The God I believe in does not lie or cheat people. What reason would God have to create this subterfuge, at the last minute, God is aware of all that transpires if he had wished then Jesus could have been saved at any point in time that God chose. God did not save him because it was Gods will that Jesus died this way. God does everything for a reason and the death of Jesus was for the salvation of mankind. That, for me at least, makes more sense that God making a switch. On another point, Jesus was scourged before death, was the substitute also scourged in this way? For surely if he had not been it would have been noticed by the onlookers..or did God put a veil over their eyes, if so then there was again no point at all.
Firstly, the subterfuge as you put it, is really in the the question, "who benefits?" Secondly, Jesus was "saved," because He PBUH, asked to be saved.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hebrews 5:7

"Salvation," is found in personal responsibility, not in the blood of the innocent.

Ezekiel 18:
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Who it is that was crucified in the New Testament is none too clear. However, what is known, is that it was not Jesus son of Mariam, PBUT.

The Gospel of Barnabas declares that it was Judas "Iscariot," who was crucified for his villainy.

As for the scourging: See Chapter 217 Barnabas.net
The chief priests with the scribes and Pharisees, seeing that Judas died not by the scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should set him at liberty, made a gift of money to the governor, who having received it gave Judas to the scribes and Pharisees as guilty unto death. Whereupon they condemned two robbers with him to the death of the cross.

So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked, for the greater ignominy.
Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why hast thou forsaken me, seeing the malefactor hath escaped and I die unjustly?'



Quote:
Point two..how and when was Jesus raised up to heaven? Is it possible to enter heaven before death as a physical being? It is possible for a soul to exist in heaven but how so a physical form where is the proof, witnesses, historical or archaeological that this happened? Apart from the small information found in the Quran.
003.055 إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ
003.055 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. Al-Qur'an, 003.055 (Aal-E-Imran [The Family of Imran])


Firstly, the N.T. Bible's, "crucifixion story," -- is strictly allegorical. Presenting it as historical, caused confusion, and reveals ignorance of the circumstances. Prophet 'Isa [Jesus, PBUH] did not come to this world (only) to die as a sacrifice for the commission of sin's of someone else, as this is an illusion.

006.164 Say: "Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards Allah: He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed." Al-Qur'an, 006.164 (Al-Anaam [Cattle, Livestock]) [Also see: 17:15; 35:18; 39:7; 53:38]


Secondly, a substitution theory cannot enter into consideration regarding the "mystical," Spiritual regeneration, the anointing, of the Prophet Isa - Jesus, son of Mariam, PBUT due to the fact that the anointed immortal Isa, Jesus, PBUH did not have blood of physical/material content, and could not have "shed blood," as an atonement for the sin's of someone else.

Thirdly, See: 1 Corinthians 15:35-57, for the Spiritual regeneration, 'mystical crucifixion' / 'birth from above' -- also see John Chapter 3. The Prophet, Messiah 'Isa was raised from [amongst] the dead ones in the world, who are visible even in todays world. But the invented version of the "execution"/crucifixion, is preferred by some believers, followers, of the New Testament.


1 Corinthians:
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.



Wassalaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2012, 09:15 AM
 
13 posts, read 19,821 times
Reputation: 15
for one thing Constantine went to Byzantium and he and his pals rearranged the bible in 400.......... took things out ..........put things in...........and didn't Mohammad embellish? so why worry about what happens after or what men did before........we were put here to live our lives now as best as we can and do as little damage as possible. Facts are for science not matters of faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-27-2012, 03:55 PM
 
762 posts, read 987,194 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Firstly, the subterfuge as you put it, is really in the the question, "who benefits?" Secondly, Jesus was "saved," because He PBUH, asked to be saved.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hebrews 5:7
Who benefits? We do. If you read the book of Hebrews in its entirety and not pick and chose out of context you will see that the above verse you quote cannot be taken to mean that Jesus was saved from earthly death because he prayed for it. Jesus knew he was ordained to die such by Gods will.


23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Quote:
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
See Ezekiel 18:20 in context.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezekiel 18:20, NIV)

You see these verses to mean that each person can only bear their own sin and that therefore Jesus cannot die for our sins. This, is not the case because this verses is referring to a person living under the covenant of the Torah (the Law of Moses). It is part of the Torah and Ezekiel 18:20 is addressing the Israelites who were living under the Torah at that time.

When somebody living under the Torah sinned they were responsible for what they had done, but if they repented they could be forgiven by a sacrifice that would bear their sin before God. The Torah explains this.

[COLOR="rgb(65, 105, 225)"]He must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven. (Leviticus 4:28-31, NIV)

For the life of a creature is in the blood , and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. (Leviticus 17:11, NIV)
[/color]

You are not seeing this verse in context, it does not say there is no sacrifice that can bear our sin. It is saying that we are individually responsible for our sins and need to seek forgiveness through God's provision of a substitute sacrifice that can bear our sin.



The Gospel of Barnabas is well known and even accepted by many Islamic scholars to be a fake.

Last edited by Nefol; 12-27-2012 at 04:17 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-30-2012, 07:58 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,187 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah. As salaamu alaykum.

Quote:
Who benefits? We do. If you read the book of Hebrews in its entirety and not pick and chose out of context you will see that the above verse you quote cannot be taken to mean that Jesus was saved from earthly death because he prayed for it. Jesus knew he was ordained to die such by Gods will. --Nefo
I find it odd, that any verse in 'Scripture' would have no basis. So, what is Hebrews 5:7 referring to?

Quote:
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezekiel 18:20, NIV)

You see these verses to mean that each person can only bear their own sin and that therefore Jesus cannot die for our sins. This, is
not the case because this verses is referring to a person living under the covenant of the Torah (the Law of Moses). It is part of the Torah and Ezekiel 18:20 is addressing the Israelites who were living under the Torah at that time.
Exactly. Each person should bear their own sin. Would you like to bear the sin of say a charles manson? Or, some crazed killer of school children? I'm sure that you get my drift.

Quote:
When somebody living under the Torah sinned they were responsible for what they had done, but if they repented they could be forgiven by a sacrifice that would bear their sin before God. The Torah explains this.
This is not only the law under Torah. It is the Perfect Law of The Only God. But God wants repentance from sin, and good deeds as a consequence.

Quote:
You are not seeing this verse in context, it does not say there is no sacrifice that can bear our sin. It is saying that we are individually responsible for our sins and need to seek forgiveness through God's provision of a substitute sacrifice that can bear our sin.
It has no thing to do with blood sacrifice. The animal sacrifice's were done away with. And, I've already explained in a previous post, the misunderstanding regarding the "crucifixion," in the New Testament.


Quote:
The Gospel of Barnabas is well known and even accepted by many Islamic scholars to be a fake.
It is not well known! If it was, it would be foremost in the books of Christianity, et cetera. I cannot imagine how, or, why the truth that is found in this gospel can be so easily dismissed, with disdain yet! This is a very sad day, indeed.

BTW, who do you think this person is? cegenglish - Home


Wassalaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-30-2012, 04:23 PM
 
762 posts, read 987,194 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
I find it odd, that any verse in 'Scripture' would have no basis. So, what is Hebrews 5:7 referring to?
What do you mean...no basis? Of course it has a basis. I take it that you have not read the whole of Hebrews, if you had the basis of Hebrew 5:7 would be clear to you. I have always found muslims adept at picking and choosing in a most ambiguous way isolated verses that may on first glance seem to agree with their point of view. The Book of Hebrews is consistent with the rest of the New Testament which emphatically affirms Jesus' death by crucifixion. The benediction of the Book of Hebrews sums up the author's views about Jesus and His death quite well...

"Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, 21equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen (Heb. 13:20-21; NASB)."

Quote:
This is not only the law under Torah. It is the Perfect Law of The Only God. But God wants repentance from sin, and good deeds as a consequence.
No amount of good deeds alone can atone for mans sin. We all fall short of the Glory of God. Despite our imperfections God shows his love for us by showing us..who are imperfect...a way to bathe in his glory..for God is perfect. That way is through Christ.

Quote:
It has no thing to do with blood sacrifice. The animal sacrifice's were done away with. And, I've already explained in a previous post, the misunderstanding regarding the "crucifixion," in the New Testament.
The only misunderstanding regarding the crucifixion is Islam's denial that it ever occurred.

Quote:
It is not well known! If it was, it would be foremost in the books of Christianity, et cetera. I cannot imagine how, or, why the truth that is found in this gospel can be so easily dismissed, with disdain yet! This is a very sad day, indeed.
It is well known...as a fake. You should compare the verses muslims like to quote for the Gospel of Barnabas with the equivalent verses from the Bible and you can easily see why it's easy to see it for what it is. That's before one takes in account the archeological evidence and the geographical and historical errors.

See link..I do hope you find time to read it, of course you will more than likely discredit the author as being anti Islamic or something of the sort...but still it makes interesting reading.

Origins and Sources of the Gospel of Barnabas
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-30-2012, 04:24 PM
 
762 posts, read 987,194 times
Reputation: 221
Btw...do tell who is the person in your clips..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-31-2012, 12:15 PM
 
352 posts, read 308,187 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah. As salaamu alaykum.



Quote:
What do you mean...no basis? Of course it has a basis. I take it that you have not read the whole of Hebrews, if you had the basis of Hebrew 5:7 would be clear to you. I have always found muslims adept at picking and choosing in a most ambiguous way isolated verses that may on first glance seem to agree with their point of view. The Book of Hebrews is consistent with the rest of the New Testament which emphatically affirms Jesus' death by crucifixion. The benediction of the Book of Hebrews sums up the author's views about Jesus and His death quite well...
So,you are satisfied that the verse in question, 'emphatically affirms Jesus' death by crucifixion'. By benediction, you mean blessedness?

Quote:
No amount of good deeds alone can atone for mans sin.
You deny the Plenteous Forgiveness, the Justice of The Most Merciful, Most compassionate.

Quote:
The only misunderstanding regarding the crucifixion is Islam's denial that it ever occurred.
002.002 ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ
002.002 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah; Al-Qur'an, 002.002 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

04.082 أَفَلا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلافًا كَثِيرًا
004.082 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. Al-Qur'an, 004.082 (An-Nisa [Women])

Quote:
That's before one takes in account the archeological evidence and the geographical and historical errors.
Archeological evidence. Now, I get the impression that 'the cross of crucifixion' was discovered.

Quote:
Origins and Sources of the Gospel of Barnabas
I've seen a few of these discourses over the years. What it's saying is that the writers of the N.T. gospels are not originals, and that they did not understand well enough, the material that they copied from. This is accurate from my point of observation. Either, that or, they deliberately confused the discourses; as the N.T., is mistranslated and misinterpreted.

Quote:
Btw...do tell who is the person in your clips..
I would think that he is the Illuminati's, choice. But, who do you say he is?



Wassalaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top