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Old 12-31-2012, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
Does the Qur'an contain eschatology that contradicts the texts written by the disciple John when he was exiled to the island of Patmos?
First you need to remember that like many non-Christians and even some Christians we tend to doubt that John of Patmos and the Apostle John were the same person and that in all probability John of Patmos never saw Jesus(as).

Now with that out of the way the Book of Revelations almost did not make it into the bible and was not accepted into the Bibles of the Orthodox churches. Catholics still do not consider it to be scripture, but do include it in the bible.

Quote:
Second century Christians in Syria rejected the book because it was relied heavily upon by Montanism, a sect which was deemed to be heretical by the mainstream church.[31] In the 4th century, Gregory of Nazianzus and other bishops argued against including Revelation because of the difficulties of interpretation and the risk of abuse. In the 16th century, Martin Luther initially considered it to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it,"[32] and placed it in his Antilegomena (his list of questionable documents), though he retracted this view in later life. In the same century, John Calvin believed the book to be canonical, yet it was the only New Testament book on which he did not write a commentary.[33] It remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church, though it is included in Catholic and Protestant liturgies.
SOURCE:

While Muslims do not rule out the possibility that John of Patmos was a Prophet, there is no mention of him being one in the Qur'an, and no verification that he was one.
To some extent there is some agreement between the Qur'an and the end times as described in revelations.However the writings of John of Patmos are not considered to be one of the Scriptures revealed to man. We believe there are 4 the Tauret (Torah), Zaboor (Psalms), Injil (Gospel of Jesus) and the Qur'an. The book of revelations is not included in either of those.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:44 PM
 
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Joseph Smith considered himself a Christian, and the Koran teaches that all Christians and Jews, and all other "non believers" are not trust worthey, Allah hates them, and they will all burn in Hell. Muhammad would view Mr. Smith as just another infadel.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider's Pantheon View Post
Joseph Smith considered himself a Christian, and the Koran teaches that all Christians and Jews, and all other "non believers" are not trust worthey, Allah hates them, and they will all burn in Hell. Muhammad would view Mr. Smith as just another infadel.
Close but not quite accurate. That looks like the views from an anti-Islam site.

I have never read in the Qur'an were it says "all Christians and Jews, and all other "non believers" are not trust worthey" in fact a Muslim man is permitted to marry a Christian or Jew. takes a bit of trust to marry someone. We are permitted to enter into contracts with Christians and Jews again that takes trust on all sides.

Infidel is an English word coined by the Catholic church of the middle ages. It comes from the Latin "In Fidalis" and means the "unfaithful" which is what the Papacy called all non-Catholics during the Crusades. It was predominately used to designate Muslims and Jews.

We do use the word Kafir to mean "Non-Believer" it is a word not to be used loosely as we can not know what is in anothers heart, someone we may think is a non-believer, may actually be a believer and to call a Believer a Kafir is a very serious sin. However, there is also a more generic meaning for Kafir that being "Non-Muslim" if a person acknowledges not being Muslim we will use Kafir in the sense of meaning "Non-Muslim". The word Kafir does not translate accurately into the word infidel, although since about the 1920s many English speaking Muslims have been using the word Infidel to mean non-Muslims. I think this all came about as a result of the old silent movie "The Sheik" starring Rudolph Valentino.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:42 AM
 
995 posts, read 795,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Close but not quite accurate. That looks like the views from an anti-Islam site.

I have never read in the Qur'an were it says "all Christians and Jews, and all other "non believers" are not trust worthey" in fact a Muslim man is permitted to marry a Christian or Jew. takes a bit of trust to marry someone. We are permitted to enter into contracts with Christians and Jews again that takes trust on all sides.

Infidel is an English word coined by the Catholic church of the middle ages. It comes from the Latin "In Fidalis" and means the "unfaithful" which is what the Papacy called all non-Catholics during the Crusades. It was predominately used to designate Muslims and Jews.

We do use the word Kafir to mean "Non-Believer" it is a word not to be used loosely as we can not know what is in anothers heart, someone we may think is a non-believer, may actually be a believer and to call a Believer a Kafir is a very serious sin. However, there is also a more generic meaning for Kafir that being "Non-Muslim" if a person acknowledges not being Muslim we will use Kafir in the sense of meaning "Non-Muslim". The word Kafir does not translate accurately into the word infidel, although since about the 1920s many English speaking Muslims have been using the word Infidel to mean non-Muslims. I think this all came about as a result of the old silent movie "The Sheik" starring Rudolph Valentino.
I could go on and on and on. The Koran and Hadiths are full of hate-spewing.


Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80)- "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide."

Ishaq 240 - "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people"

Bukhari (59:727) - Allah's Apostle [said]... "Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians"

Quran (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
Quran (66:9) - O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.

Quran (9:73) - O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination

Quran (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

Quran (22:19-21) - But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron


Qur'an (3:118 - "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."

Ishaq 262 - "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse"
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider's Pantheon View Post
I could go on and on and on. The Koran and Hadiths are full of hate-spewing.


Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80)- "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide."

Ishaq 240 - "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people"

Bukhari (59:727) - Allah's Apostle [said]... "Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians"

Quran (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
Quran (66:9) - O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.

Quran (9:73) - O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination

Quran (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

Quran (22:19-21) - But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron


Qur'an (3:118 - "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."

Ishaq 262 - "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse"
You may want to learn more about Ishaq. He was not a Prophet nor did he speak for Islam. His words were his own opinion and are not binding upon any Muslim. He expressed his own opinion and like all opinions they are not commandments nor considered to be free from error.

In the quotes from the Qur'an they make the error of translating the word Walli as friend. While a walli is a friend most friends will never be ones walli. A walli is a person you place your full trust in to guide you in Islam and keep you from making errors. A walli is who you take to be your fully trusted protector that you will trust in all matters A walli is the person we choose to be our Islamic Mentor and leader.

The Arabic word for the English equivalent of friend is Sadeek. Nothing in the Qur'an forbids us from having a Jew or Christian as a Sadeek. But it is true we can only have a Muslim as a Walli.

It is true Aisha said that Muhammad did say

Bukhari (59:727) - Allah's Apostle [said]... "Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians"

But to understand the reason why one must read the entire Hadith.

Quote:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 727:
Narrated Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) "When the ailment of Allah's Apostle became aggravated, he requested his wives to permit him to be (treated) nursed in my house, and they gave him permission. He came out (to my house), walking between two men with his feet dragging on the ground, between 'Abbas bin 'Abdul--Muttalib and another man" 'Ubaidullah said, "I told 'Abdullah of what 'Aisha had said, 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas said to me, 'Do you know who is the other man whom 'Aisha did not name?' I said, 'No.' Ibn 'Abbas said, 'It was 'Ali bin Abu Talib." 'Aisha, the wife of the Prophet used to narrate saying, "When Allah's Apostle entered my house and his disease became aggravated, he said, " Pour on me the water of seven water skins, the mouths of which have not been untied, so that I may give advice to the people.' So we let him sit in a big basin belonging to Hafsa, the wife of the Prophet and then started to pour water on him from these water skins till he started pointing to us with his hands intending to say, 'You have done your job." 'Aisha added, "Then he went out to the people and led them in prayer and preached to them." 'Aisha and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas said, "When Allah's Apostle became ill seriously, he started covering his face with his woolen sheet, and when he felt short of breath, he removed it from his; face and said, 'That is so! Allah's (curse be on the Jews and the Christians, as they took the graves of their prophets as (places of worship),' intending to warn (the Muslims ) of what they had done." 'Aisha added, "I argued with Allah's Apostle repeatedly about that matter (i.e. his order that Abu Bakr should lead the people in prayer in his place when he was ill), and what made me argue so much, was, that it never occurred to my mind that after the Prophet, the people would ever love a man who had taken his place, and I felt that anybody standing in his place, would be a bad omen to the people, so I wanted Allah's Apostle to give up the idea of choosing Abu Bakr (to lead the people in prayer)."
The remainder of what you quoted are from descriptions of what we are told Hell is like and why we should avoid going there.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 01-03-2013 at 01:13 PM..
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:05 PM
 
Location: USA
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It's pretty standard for most religions to claim that the creator of that religion is the last and most important of the Prophets, Gurus or Yogis. You’re not going to get someone to call someone of your chosen religion anything other than a False Prophet. It's a continuing theme throughout history in many religions, some more successful than others. L. Ron Hubbard comes to mind as being the latest successful Prophets. Koresh and Jones, not so much.

The other certainty of History is the older the religion is the more believable it is
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Old 09-16-2014, 11:27 PM
ZSL
 
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Jesus was Jewish and received council from men of Islam (peace) who gave him the gospel for the salvation of his people. *this is what I believe...
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:18 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
But it has to be said the similarities between Mohammed and Joseph Smith are uncanny. Check it out for yourself.

I find it strange that because Mohammed claimed to be a prophet 1500 years ago it has to be true. But Because Joseph Smith claimed the same in recent times..he has to be a false prophet.

Based on a claim in the Quran or is it Hadith? In truth there was no need for any Prophet after Christ.
Actually the similarities between Muhammed and Hitler are much closer.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:27 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You may want to learn more about Ishaq. He was not a Prophet nor did he speak for Islam. His words were his own opinion and are not binding upon any Muslim. He expressed his own opinion and like all opinions they are not commandments nor considered to be free from error.

In the quotes from the Qur'an they make the error of translating the word Walli as friend. While a walli is a friend most friends will never be ones walli. A walli is a person you place your full trust in to guide you in Islam and keep you from making errors. A walli is who you take to be your fully trusted protector that you will trust in all matters A walli is the person we choose to be our Islamic Mentor and leader.

The Arabic word for the English equivalent of friend is Sadeek. Nothing in the Qur'an forbids us from having a Jew or Christian as a Sadeek. But it is true we can only have a Muslim as a Walli.

It is true Aisha said that Muhammad did say

Bukhari (59:727) - Allah's Apostle [said]... "Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians"

But to understand the reason why one must read the entire Hadith.



The remainder of what you quoted are from descriptions of what we are told Hell is like and why we should avoid going there.

a few mistakes there.

Ishaq was not a prophet, he was simply a compiler of hadieths, the earliest ones.

In fact the only biography of Muhammed within 200 years of his lifetime, and the closest thing Islam has to the source.

Anyone can take an individual hadieth and exchange meanings for the words, but when you consider the virtually hundreds of hadieth, de-humanizing, robbing, torturing, and killing of the Jews, along with Gods orders to exterminate them, you cannot squirm out of it.


In fact, it is the living jews that are keeping the Christians from becoming the main target today.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:29 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZSL View Post
Jesus was Jewish and received council from men of Islam (peace) who gave him the gospel for the salvation of his people. *this is what I believe...
I can believe pigs fly, but facts get in the way.

There was no Islam in the time of Jesus.
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