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Old 01-17-2013, 04:11 PM
 
419 posts, read 698,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *~Poppy~* View Post
WOOOHOOO!!!! Fox News.... we have a winner!!

lulz;pleeez
Way to ignore the questions and change the subject with your childish response.

I'll ask again:

Why does Sharia Law say that Muslims who convert to other religions should be executed?

Why does Sharia Law say that homosexuals should be executed?

Why are honor killing so prevalent in muslim countries?
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDoc View Post
Way to ignore the questions and change the subject with your childish response.

I'll ask again:

Why does Sharia Law say that Muslims who convert to other religions should be executed?

Why does Sharia Law say that homosexuals should be executed?

Why are honor killing so prevalent in muslim countries?
Sharia law does not have the death penalty for apostasy or homosexuality. Although I believe they are punishable by death in Iran under the Shi'ite Jafa'ari Law. And in Saudi by the Wahhabi. Wahhabiism has pretty much replaced Sharia law in Saudi.

The countries were honor killings are most prevelant Iraq, Pakistan and India are not limited to just the Muslims in those Nations. In Pakistan and India it is very common among the Punjabi no matter what religion they follow or don't follow, It seems to be related to the ancient traditional Punjabi culture. Most Paikistanis are of Punjabi Descent and are Muslim. Most Punjabi in India are Hindu or Sikh, but it is very common among the Punjabi in both countries.

A few reads about honor killings in regards to Punjabs. HERE HERE

In Iraq it is mostly practiced by the Yazidi and seems to be a Kurdish related cultural thing.

Honor killings are forbidden in Islam as are all killings except in defense and then only under specific conditions.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:16 AM
 
762 posts, read 988,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sharia law does not have the death penalty for apostasy or homosexuality. Although I believe they are punishable by death in Iran under the Shi'ite Jafa'ari Law. And in Saudi by the Wahhabi. Wahhabiism has pretty much replaced Sharia law in Saudi.

The countries were honor killings are most prevelant Iraq, Pakistan and India are not limited to just the Muslims in those Nations. In Pakistan and India it is very common among the Punjabi no matter what religion they follow or don't follow, It seems to be related to the ancient traditional Punjabi culture. Most Paikistanis are of Punjabi Descent and are Muslim. Most Punjabi in India are Hindu or Sikh, but it is very common among the Punjabi in both countries.

A few reads about honor killings in regards to Punjabs. HERE HERE

In Iraq it is mostly practiced by the Yazidi and seems to be a Kurdish related cultural thing.

Honor killings are forbidden in Islam as are all killings except in defense and then only under specific conditions.
Woodrow, I don't think the average person distinguishes between the different sects of Islam and what is or is not Sharia. BUT when women are stoned to death, where people have their hands chopped off for stealing etc. these sentences are invariably said by the countries concerned to be carried out according to THEIR sharia law. It is no doubt their right to carry out their laws in their countries as they see fit ..as they do. The fact that generally the west find these actions abhorrent in a civilised world makes no difference in the grand scheme of things..since these barbaric executions and punishments go on occurring it shows that they do not care much about world opinion.

Honour killings I accept are more based in cultural traditions, but there is a thin line in what those guilty of such crimes see as tradition and what Islam condones. Many do believe they are acting according to what their religion dictates, through ignorance maybe, but Islam is still to blame here because it has not made it clear that their actions are not according to Islam. A recent case of a Pakistani family in the UK who murdered there daughter because she refused an arranged marraige and in their eyes had become too "western". They were found guilty of the crime but they used their religion as muslims as an excuse for their actions. Dishonourable actions across the board really.

We constantly hear how women are so well respected in Islam, well I think someone should make it clear to some muslim men , because it would seem that a proportion have somehow misunderstood what well respected means. Of course it could be that they are just poor excuses for men in let's face it they are found everywhere in all religions and of no religion..but they should not use their religion of Islam as an excuse for being a rubbish person.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Woodrow, I don't think the average person distinguishes between the different sects of Islam and what is or is not Sharia. BUT when women are stoned to death, where people have their hands chopped off for stealing etc. these sentences are invariably said by the countries concerned to be carried out according to THEIR sharia law. It is no doubt their right to carry out their laws in their countries as they see fit ..as they do. The fact that generally the west find these actions abhorrent in a civilised world makes no difference in the grand scheme of things..since these barbaric executions and punishments go on occurring it shows that they do not care much about world opinion.

Honour killings I accept are more based in cultural traditions, but there is a thin line in what those guilty of such crimes see as tradition and what Islam condones. Many do believe they are acting according to what their religion dictates, through ignorance maybe, but Islam is still to blame here because it has not made it clear that their actions are not according to Islam. A recent case of a Pakistani family in the UK who murdered there daughter because she refused an arranged marraige and in their eyes had become too "western". They were found guilty of the crime but they used their religion as muslims as an excuse for their actions. Dishonourable actions across the board really.

We constantly hear how women are so well respected in Islam, well I think someone should make it clear to some muslim men , because it would seem that a proportion have somehow misunderstood what well respected means. Of course it could be that they are just poor excuses for men in let's face it they are found everywhere in all religions and of no religion..but they should not use their religion of Islam as an excuse for being a rubbish person.
I can see why it is difficult for non-Muslims to comprehend Sharia law and what it is or is not. It is actually quite complex and entails a very long study. While Sharia is not found in the Qur'an, Sunnah or Ahadith, it is a legal system based upon them. the first attempt was for the Local Wali (Governor) to appoint Qads (Judges) to establish local laws.

In order to standarize laws in a nation each nation developed it's own legal system beginning about in the 9th century by the 14th century four schools of thought (Madhabs) remained these being Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali. These are the only Madhabs recognized as Sharia by Sunni.

The Civil laws are well developed and identical in all 4 Madhabs. The differences occur in the criminal codes, which are still in the process of forming. All 4 schools agree as to what constitutes a criminal offense that require an earthly punishment those are the Hadd or Hadud crimes. There are five hadd crimes: unlawful sexual intercourse (sex outside of marriage and adultery), false accusation of unlawful sexual intercourse, wine drinking (sometimes extended to include all alcohol drinking), theft, and highway robbery. Where the madhabs differ is what the maximum punishment should be for each Hadd crime and what constitutes proof of guilt. The Hanafi Madhab stresses leniency and that reason should be found to impose the minimum punishment allowed. Although in the Hanafi madhab all Hadd crimes, except for drinking alcohol, carry a maximum punishment of death, the death penalty has never been imposed under a Hanafi court of Sharia.

NOTICE that under all 4 Madhabs neither Apostasy (leaving Islam) nor homosexuality are considered crimes, much less calling for the death penalty.

A good explanation of Sharia can be found HERE

A difficult area to understand is the Islamic concept of self responsibility. there is no standard teaching of Islam. It is an obligation for each Muslim to learn all he can to the best of his ability.To question all things, not to blindly follow any religious leader, to never stop reading and constantly pray for guidance in his search.

Islam is not a religion that consists of do and don't do. It is a religion of constant learning and striving to grow in Imaan

Islam is a very basic and easy religion with very little doctrine and no canons nor standardized teachings. the goals are to attain Islam, grow in Imaan and strive to attain Ishan.

Quote:
Islam has three stages: Islam, Iman, and Ihsan.

Islam: The meaning of Islam is as defined by the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) when he was asked by the Angel Gabriel (Alaihi As-Salaam): “To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is His Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), to establish the prayers, to give Zakah, to fast the month of Ramadan, and to make pilgrimage to Makkah, if one is able to do so”. [Reported by Muslim and others].

Iman: The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said that Iman is, "To believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, to believe in meeting Him, to believe in His Messengers, the Resurrection and the predestination." [Reported by Bukhari, Muslim and others].

This is the meaning of Islam and Iman if they are mentioned in one context. However, if only one of them is mentioned, then each one encompasses the meaning of the other one. If the word Islam only is mentioned, it includes the meaning of Iman, and vice-versa.

By the definitions of Islam and Iman, we notice that Iman is about inwardly actions, and Islam is about outside actions.

Ihsan: Ihsan is exclusively the highest status of religion, its meaning is: "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you do not see Him, He sees you." This is the definition of Ihsan as stated by the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam).

That’s to say that Ihsan has two stages: the highest one is to worship Allah as if you see Him; if you cannot attain this status of worship, then worship Him being certain that He sees you and that He is All-Aware of your actions and deeds.

SOURCE


Again Islam is all about personal responsibility and not being fed a belief. We recognize 5 levels of responsibility.

FIQH--That which we are obligated to do and if we fail to do them by our own choice it is a sin

SUNNAH--No obligation to do, no sin if we do not do, but it is a great blessing to do through our own free choice

Halal--Anything we are permitted to do or avoid doing as we personally desire. No sin or blessing for doing or not doing.

MAKROOF--Not forbidden, no sin if we do, but it is a blessing to not do by our own free choice

Haram--No if, but or maybe, absolutely forbidden. a sin if we choose to do

You may notice that some Muslims never fully reach the first step of Islam. But that is their own choice and their right to choose hellfire over heaven as they desire. there is no obligation in Islam, but we will all face the results of our choices. It is our own responsibility to choose wisely.

You may consider true sharia law as a necessity in predominately Muslim Nations as a means to keep the populace from enforcing their own concepts of Islam. Sadly in today's world no Nation follows true sharia and what is called sharia is usually the law of a national government and not the following of any Madhab. Atrocities are occurring not because of sharia, but because Sharia is not being followed.

Just my opinion, astagfirullah
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:48 PM
 
12,886 posts, read 15,451,091 times
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I couldn't be part of a religion (or belief) that blames the woman when she is raped, I don't see that as respecting woman at all....just my perception maybe......Islamic Law: woman forced to choose between marrying her rapist, or 12 years in jail for adultery - Atlas Shrugs

http://www.exmuslim.org/raped-women-taken-to-jail.html
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
I couldn't be part of a religion (or belief) that blames the woman when she is raped, I don't see that as respecting woman at all....just my perception maybe......Islamic Law: woman forced to choose between marrying her rapist, or 12 years in jail for adultery - Atlas Shrugs

Raped women taken to jail

Under true sharia a woman can not be forced to marry anyone. But in parts of the Mideast family culture has more influence than Islam.

.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:49 AM
 
762 posts, read 988,712 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I can see why it is difficult for non-Muslims to comprehend Sharia law and what it is or is not. It is actually quite complex and entails a very long study. While Sharia is not found in the Qur'an, Sunnah or Ahadith, it is a legal system based upon them. the first attempt was for the Local Wali (Governor) to appoint Qads (Judges) to establish local laws.

In order to standarize laws in a nation each nation developed it's own legal system beginning about in the 9th century by the 14th century four schools of thought (Madhabs) remained these being Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali. These are the only Madhabs recognized as Sharia by Sunni.

The Civil laws are well developed and identical in all 4 Madhabs. The differences occur in the criminal codes, which are still in the process of forming. All 4 schools agree as to what constitutes a criminal offense that require an earthly punishment those are the Hadd or Hadud crimes. There are five hadd crimes: unlawful sexual intercourse (sex outside of marriage and adultery), false accusation of unlawful sexual intercourse, wine drinking (sometimes extended to include all alcohol drinking), theft, and highway robbery. Where the madhabs differ is what the maximum punishment should be for each Hadd crime and what constitutes proof of guilt. The Hanafi Madhab stresses leniency and that reason should be found to impose the minimum punishment allowed. Although in the Hanafi madhab all Hadd crimes, except for drinking alcohol, carry a maximum punishment of death, the death penalty has never been imposed under a Hanafi court of Sharia.

NOTICE that under all 4 Madhabs neither Apostasy (leaving Islam) nor homosexuality are considered crimes, much less calling for the death penalty.

A good explanation of Sharia can be found HERE

A difficult area to understand is the Islamic concept of self responsibility. there is no standard teaching of Islam. It is an obligation for each Muslim to learn all he can to the best of his ability.To question all things, not to blindly follow any religious leader, to never stop reading and constantly pray for guidance in his search.

Islam is not a religion that consists of do and don't do. It is a religion of constant learning and striving to grow in Imaan

Islam is a very basic and easy religion with very little doctrine and no canons nor standardized teachings. the goals are to attain Islam, grow in Imaan and strive to attain Ishan.



SOURCE


Again Islam is all about personal responsibility and not being fed a belief. We recognize 5 levels of responsibility.

FIQH--That which we are obligated to do and if we fail to do them by our own choice it is a sin

SUNNAH--No obligation to do, no sin if we do not do, but it is a great blessing to do through our own free choice

Halal--Anything we are permitted to do or avoid doing as we personally desire. No sin or blessing for doing or not doing.

MAKROOF--Not forbidden, no sin if we do, but it is a blessing to not do by our own free choice

Haram--No if, but or maybe, absolutely forbidden. a sin if we choose to do

You may notice that some Muslims never fully reach the first step of Islam. But that is their own choice and their right to choose hellfire over heaven as they desire. there is no obligation in Islam, but we will all face the results of our choices. It is our own responsibility to choose wisely.

You may consider true sharia law as a necessity in predominately Muslim Nations as a means to keep the populace from enforcing their own concepts of Islam. Sadly in today's world no Nation follows true sharia and what is called sharia is usually the law of a national government and not the following of any Madhab. Atrocities are occurring not because of sharia, but because Sharia is not being followed.

Just my opinion, astagfirullah
Woodrow, as always very informative. You make it sound quite noble, but it has to be said dress it up however reality for many people living under sharia is different. Women do NOT always get the justice they deserve, especially in cases of " morality". Women are blamed for the actions of weak men, the weak men on,y have to deny rape happened or maybe claim the woman tempted him...who knows showed an ankle or something. the onus is on the women to prove her innocence. When the world knows that a raped woman never asks to be raped.

It's all very well saying that every muslim is responsible for themselves and should strive for constant learning but many muslims live where education is not widely available and a good many are likely to be illiterate. How do these people learn of Islam? For sure just saying prayers by rote alone isn't likely to bring understanding. They most likely follow by example and if that example is not a person well learned in the correct Islam..and there are many different viewpoints within Islam what that might be, then they are likely to end up with a confused mix of Islam and cultural traditions. That's how we end up with situations of barbarity doled out as punishments in the name of Islamic justice, and fosters a huge misunderstanding amongst the non muslim world of the supposed religion of peace.

I always think that muslims themselves hinder the spread of Islam by their actions or non actions. So carry on and the world will continue to turn.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:55 AM
 
762 posts, read 988,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
I couldn't be part of a religion (or belief) that blames the woman when she is raped, I don't see that as respecting woman at all....just my perception maybe......Islamic Law: woman forced to choose between marrying her rapist, or 12 years in jail for adultery - Atlas Shrugs

Raped women taken to jail
Or she could marry the swine...likely suffer years of abuse...seek a divorce and possibly end up with acid thrown in her face and scarred for life. if she's unfortunate enough to live in Pakistan.

Of course it does not say anywhere that acid attacks are ok, however the idea that a woman is the property of a man, which is prevalent in many Islamic countries does nothing to prevent the idea that he can do whatever he wants.

That may be treat her like a princess or maybe treat her like dirt...the choice is his!!!
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Woodrow, as always very informative. You make it sound quite noble, but it has to be said dress it up however reality for many people living under sharia is different. Women do NOT always get the justice they deserve, especially in cases of " morality". Women are blamed for the actions of weak men, the weak men on,y have to deny rape happened or maybe claim the woman tempted him...who knows showed an ankle or something. the onus is on the women to prove her innocence. When the world knows that a raped woman never asks to be raped.

It's all very well saying that every muslim is responsible for themselves and should strive for constant learning but many muslims live where education is not widely available and a good many are likely to be illiterate. How do these people learn of Islam? For sure just saying prayers by rote alone isn't likely to bring understanding. They most likely follow by example and if that example is not a person well learned in the correct Islam..and there are many different viewpoints within Islam what that might be, then they are likely to end up with a confused mix of Islam and cultural traditions. That's how we end up with situations of barbarity doled out as punishments in the name of Islamic justice, and fosters a huge misunderstanding amongst the non muslim world of the supposed religion of peace.

I always think that muslims themselves hinder the spread of Islam by their actions or non actions. So carry on and the world will continue to turn.
Your honest input and legitimate questions are always appreciated.

You have brought out some very valid points. Working bakcwards:

Quote:
I always think that muslims themselves hinder the spread of Islam by their actions or non actions.
I agree, those of us who set a bad example do keep people from learning about Islam and does hinder in the learning of what Islam actually is. It is quite interesting how most people learn about Islam. There is no worldly incentive for anyone to "teach" about Islam. With no ordained clergy, no central earthly leaders and no financial gain as we do not tithe, the only way one can actually teach about what Islam means is by setting a life example and leading a life that follows what one believes. In much of the world a person's teachers will be their immediate family. While all of us do have our own opinions as to what each ayyat in the Qur'an means we seldom share that with others. Most of us feel that to make any commentary or interpretation of the Qur'an hinders the self responsibility of those we attempt to teach. Also since all commentaries and opinions are from us humans they are subject to error and none of us wants to pass on an error. For this reason most teaching is limited to just the words as written with no opinion expressed. It is up to the individual to seek interpretation on their own. However, there are many sources available the most common being the daily fatawahs an Imam usually gives prior to each of the daily obligatory prayers. Usually these will be related to a local issue that the Imam gives his opinion about and quotes the ayyats he believes support his opinion. the next source will be by following the example of those one feels are admirable. Later one learns to seek out the advice of recognized scholars and reads things such as the Fiqh-ul-Sunnah and begins a study of the Ahadith. But always with the attitude of not accepting anything unless they prove to themselves it is true.

But it all comes to being the responsibility for each of us to be a valid example of what it means to be a Muslim and not let the misguided ones be the loudest voice heard.

Quote:
It's all very well saying that every muslim is responsible for themselves and should strive for constant learning but many muslims live where education is not widely available and a good many are likely to be illiterate.
That is true and even sadder the illiteracy is encouraged by the governments to keep the people in control. There are nations in which women are discouraged from attending prayers in a Mosque or from even reading the Qur'an. But there are almost always people within such societies that do still manage to set an example as a pious Muslim. I strongly believe that Allaah(swt) will lead those who desire to be led by Him.

Quote:
Woodrow, as always very informative. You make it sound quite noble, but it has to be said dress it up however reality for many people living under sharia is different. Women do NOT always get the justice they deserve, especially in cases of " morality". Women are blamed for the actions of weak men, the weak men on,y have to deny rape happened or maybe claim the woman tempted him...who knows showed an ankle or something. the onus is on the women to prove her innocence. When the world knows that a raped woman never asks to be raped.
Fortunately this is an area currently being addressed in many Nations. Woman are rediscovering their rights and becoming quite demanding that they be restored. I don't have much to add except to acknowledge it is a problem in many backward nations. In virtually every nation until the past 200 years women were considered property, this has been and still is a problem that extends beyond religion. Even the word woman originally denoted ownership by a man.

This has been a long battle that has been fought in every Nation. Ironically the Qur'an is the only Abrahamic religious scripture that recognizes the equality of woman. And today the western world equates Islam with viewing woman as inferior.

As for rape in predominately Muslim Nations. Too often what is called Sharia is abused and results in injustice to women.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:04 PM
 
40,112 posts, read 26,772,494 times
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Default Women in Islam are respected and held in high regard

Wood,
Prior to knowing you . . . I would have called the OP a lie and your posts mere apologetics. But at least now I will acknowledge that some Muslims hold to the values you do. Unfortunately, there are far too many Islamic states where this is not true . . . if fact it is the opposite. There is no equality for women under Sharia. Sorry my friend, you are not only a minority . . . you are a tiny minority, IMO. The respect and regard referred to is actually chattell submission and bondage to men.
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