U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-18-2019, 07:42 PM
 
24 posts, read 4,017 times
Reputation: 13

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Who told you they are my scholars? I learnt about Islam from the Qur'an, and not from any scholar.

Ibn Kathir that I mentioned, in response your argument, is not hadith but Tafsir. It does not say "ewes" mentioned in the Qur'an are "women". Even the Prophet never said that the "ewes" mentioned in the Qur'an are "women". So why argue about something that is just nonsense?

I don't quote ahadith. As for "mentioning" ahadith, I am answering nonsensical questions. Quoting a hadith to explain Islam is not the same as mentioning ahadith in an argument. Even you are mentioning ahadith here even though you don't believe any.

Where did I say I "reject" them? Why are you making it up.

Why are you mentioning it if you don't believe it?

FYI, men too will end up in Hell mostly. So?
Whats all this ? Quoting hadith to support your belief in Quran in an argument means you believe the hadith when it suits you.

Also, a tafsir of the Quran is derived using the hadith & sira too including Ibn Kathir.
For instance the tafsir for verse 2:282 on why Allah decreed one man is equal to two women in court;-

Allah said,
﴿وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ﴾
(And get two witnesses out of your own men) requiring witnesses to attend the dictation of contracts to further preserve the contents,
﴿فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ﴾
(And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women)
this requirement is only for contracts that directly or indirectly involve money. Allah requires that two women take the place of one man as witness, because of the woman's shortcomings, as the Prophet described. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,
يَا مَعْشَرَ النِّسَاءِ تَصَدَّقْنَ وَأَكْثِرْنَ الْاسْتِغْفَارَ، فَإِنِّي رَأَيْتُكُنَّ أَكْثَرَ أَهْلِ النَّار
(O women! Give away charity and ask for forgiveness, for I saw that you comprise the majority of the people of the Fire.)
One eloquent woman said, "O Messenger of Allah! Why do we comprise the majority of the people of the Fire'' He said,
تُكْثِرْنَ اللَّعْنَ، وَتَكْفُرْنَ الْعَشِيرَ، وَمَا رَأَيْتُ مِنْ نَاقِصَاتِ عَقْلٍ وَدِينٍ، أَغْلَبَ لِذِي لُبَ مِنْكُن
(You curse a lot and you do not appreciate your mate. I have never seen those who have shortcoming in mind and religion controlling those who have sound minds, other than you.) She said, "O Messenger of Allah! What is this shortcoming in mind and religion'' He said,
أَمَّا نُقْصَانُ عَقْلِهَا، فَشَهَادَةُ امْرَأَتَيْنِ تَعْدِلُ شَهَادَةَ رَجُلٍ، فَهَذَا نُقْصَانُ الْعَقْلِ، وَتَمْكُثُ اللَّيَالِي لَا تُصَلِّي وَتُفْطِرُ فِي رَمَضَانَ، فَهَذَا نُقْصَانُ الدِّين
(As for the shortcoming in her mind, the testimony of two women equals the testimony of one man, and this is the shortcoming in the mind. As for the shortcoming in the religion, woman remains for nights at a time when she does not pray and breaks the fast in Ramadan)


Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Witnesses Should Attend the Dictation of Contracts

Here the hadith which says women make up the majority in Hell because they are defficient in intelligence (supposedly due to nagging at their husband) & defficient in religion (supposedly due to their menses) is used by Ibn Kathir to explain the verse 2:282.

Last edited by yragnitup; 02-18-2019 at 08:58 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-19-2019, 05:24 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Whats all this ? Quoting hadith to support your belief in Quran in an argument means you believe the hadith when it suits you.
No. You got it all wrong.

I don''t quote hadith to back my belief in the Qur'an. You cite one hadith that I had quoted to back up my belief in the Qur'an.

I had used Ibn Kathir tafsir just to counter the tafsir you had cited. That means one tafsir contradicts the other tafsir. That was the point made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Also, a tafsir of the Quran is derived using the hadith & sira too including Ibn Kathir.
That's why I don't believe every word in any tafsir to be correct. That includes Ibn Kathir tafsir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
For instance the tafsir for verse 2:282 on why Allah decreed one man is equal to two women in court;-

Allah said,
﴿وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ﴾
(And get two witnesses out of your own men) requiring witnesses to attend the dictation of contracts to further preserve the contents,
﴿فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ﴾
(And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women)
this requirement is only for contracts that directly or indirectly involve money. Allah requires that two women take the place of one man as witness, because of the woman's shortcomings, as the Prophet described. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,
يَا مَعْشَرَ النِّسَاءِ تَصَدَّقْنَ وَأَكْثِرْنَ الْاسْتِغْفَارَ، فَإِنِّي رَأَيْتُكُنَّ أَكْثَرَ أَهْلِ النَّار
(O women! Give away charity and ask for forgiveness, for I saw that you comprise the majority of the people of the Fire.)
One eloquent woman said, "O Messenger of Allah! Why do we comprise the majority of the people of the Fire'' He said,
تُكْثِرْنَ اللَّعْنَ، وَتَكْفُرْنَ الْعَشِيرَ، وَمَا رَأَيْتُ مِنْ نَاقِصَاتِ عَقْلٍ وَدِينٍ، أَغْلَبَ لِذِي لُبَ مِنْكُن
(You curse a lot and you do not appreciate your mate. I have never seen those who have shortcoming in mind and religion controlling those who have sound minds, other than you.) She said, "O Messenger of Allah! What is this shortcoming in mind and religion'' He said,
أَمَّا نُقْصَانُ عَقْلِهَا، فَشَهَادَةُ امْرَأَتَيْنِ تَعْدِلُ شَهَادَةَ رَجُلٍ، فَهَذَا نُقْصَانُ الْعَقْلِ، وَتَمْكُثُ اللَّيَالِي لَا تُصَلِّي وَتُفْطِرُ فِي رَمَضَانَ، فَهَذَا نُقْصَانُ الدِّين
(As for the shortcoming in her mind, the testimony of two women equals the testimony of one man, and this is the shortcoming in the mind. As for the shortcoming in the religion, woman remains for nights at a time when she does not pray and breaks the fast in Ramadan)


Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Witnesses Should Attend the Dictation of Contracts

Here the hadith which says women make up the majority in Hell because they are defficient in intelligence (supposedly due to nagging at their husband) & defficient in religion (supposedly due to their menses) is used by Ibn Kathir to explain the verse 2:282.
I have already rejected this in another discussion.

The reason given in the Qur'an for having two women instead of missing man is not woman's intelligence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2019, 08:27 PM
 
24 posts, read 4,017 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. You got it all wrong.

I don''t quote hadith to back my belief in the Qur'an. You cite one hadith that I had quoted to back up my belief in the Qur'an.

I had used Ibn Kathir tafsir just to counter the tafsir you had cited. That means one tafsir contradicts the other tafsir. That was the point made.

That's why I don't believe every word in any tafsir to be correct. That includes Ibn Kathir tafsir.

I have already rejected this in another discussion.
You reject hadiths, you reject tafseers. It's a good trend. Hope it cathes up the rest of the 1.6 billion Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The reason given in the Qur'an for having two women instead of missing man is not woman's intelligence.
Sorry but in practise in most Shariah courts a women's witness is half of a man. There fore you should teach the OIC countries the real Islam you have discovered.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2019, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
43,562 posts, read 52,689,396 times
Reputation: 70844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider's Pantheon View Post
The prophet of Islam and his companions used war to collect women for personal sexual use and for trading. Unless she was arbitrarily declared as someone's wife, the woman became a sex slave. In no case was her fate tied to anything that she had personally done, nor was she given a choice about her future.
That is like literally the fate of any and every woman on the wrong side of any war since the beginning of time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2019, 02:00 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
You reject hadiths, you reject tafseers. It's a good trend. Hope it cathes up the rest of the 1.6 billion Muslims.
You need to understand something about what I accept and what I reject. I don't reject all ahadith or reject all tafsirs. I accept what agrees with the Qur'an and do not believe whatever does not comply with the Qur'an. Did I make my view clear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Sorry but in practise in most Shariah courts a women's witness is half of a man.
Why can't you think that there is no such thing as half a witness or "half of a man"? Each woman is either full witness or not a witness. No such thing as half a witness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
There fore you should teach the OIC countries the real Islam you have discovered.
I am here to explain my understanding of Islam. I don't have to go to other countries to do that. Not all OIC countries have only Islamic laws. If they get it wrong then they will bear the consequences. They are not my responsibility. I can answer only for myself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top