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Old 02-02-2013, 01:52 PM
 
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As a Muslim I believe the Qur'an when it tells us in Surat 2 ayyat 256 that we are not to force the Christians or any religion to accept Islam and all people are to be free to choose what they desire to worship.
Woodrow, if only we could say that all muslims in the world adhere to this practice it would be fine. However the reality is very different. I have lived in Islamic countries and as a Christian never felt the freedom to worship as I wished. In the UK..I speak from experience..there is a mosque in virtually every town where there are muslims. They are free to worship, infact I think if anything there is positive discrimination towards muslims, which to my mind is as bad as negative discrimination, as it fosters feelings of resentment. I have yet to see churches in abundance in predominately muslim countries, and it has to be said in many places christians are regularly persecuted for their beliefs.
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Well I guess muslims are free to pick and choose which bits of the gospels that they feel fit best into their Injil...but they can offer no proof that this Injil ever existed, so it could be considered a mute point.



Not really, it's clear from the very different versions of islam we see round the world that there is no central doctrine. The lack of a central doctrine and in leaving the interpretation to each individual leaves Islam open to be abused by the individual. We then have bad practice attributed to Islam. This I think leads to misunderstandings.
You are understanding that quite accurately. Islam is very individualistic. We believe each person is responsible for learning what Islam is. Yet, a person is not completely on their own. Everything a person can learn is out in the open and very accessible. Especially in today's world with instant world wide communications.

If a person asks questions they will find someone willing to help them find an answer. The most common advice a Muslim will get is to never believe anything without finding reason to believe. We do not have the option to say we were misled, we have the responsibility to make our best effort to find the truth and not to blindly follow the word's of any man.

Nearly every Mosque has tons of free literature available to anyone interested in learning more about Islam. That is often a starting point.

I do not know of any Mosque collects any money from visitors or even members. There is no obligation to donate to a Mosque. Although we are obligated to donate to charities of our own choosing. Occasionally a mosque may support a charity such as a local shelter or the red cross and ask people to donate to them. At times a member of the Mosque may have had a calamity befall them and they can ask the members to anonymously help them.

A Mosque does not make money and does not send any to a central office. Money collected at a Mosque, stays at that Mosque. Often the Imam is the one who is responsible for all of a Mosques expenses.

Every Mosque like every Muslim is individualistic. We speak only to God. Pray only to God and worship only God. We have no intermediaries, policies, teachings or doctrines that come between us and God.
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
Woodrow, if only we could say that all muslims in the world adhere to this practice it would be fine. However the reality is very different. I have lived in Islamic countries and as a Christian never felt the freedom to worship as I wished. In the UK..I speak from experience..there is a mosque in virtually every town where there are muslims. They are free to worship, infact I think if anything there is positive discrimination towards muslims, which to my mind is as bad as negative discrimination, as it fosters feelings of resentment. I have yet to see churches in abundance in predominately muslim countries, and it has to be said in many places christians are regularly persecuted for their beliefs.
I recall You once lived in Morocco. That may be the only Islamic Nation we both lived in. My first time was in the very late 1950s. Southern Morocco was then called French Moroco and Northern Morocco was Spanish Morocco.

In Both countries churches were almost as common as Mosques. I can still remember the huge Cathedral that was in the center of Rabat.

Yes in the kingdoms such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the king does not want to build any churches and wont. Keep in mind in Saudi the Royal family owns every bit of real estate and all buildings are built by the Royal family. To ask him to build a Church would be like asking the head of the Westboro Church to use his money to build a Mosque on his private Property.

To ask the King to Build a Christian Church for you is like asking the Pope to build a synagogue in the Vatican.

The King owns the place. Saudi is his own privately owned sand box. It is his sand box and if a person does not like the sand they have to go find a sandbox that agrees with them. When you are in a kingdom you are on private property.

The only Muslim country that claims to be a theocracy is Iran, which is essentially a dictatorship.

Think Catholic Church. Iran is to Shi'i what the Vatican is to Catholics and the ayatollah is what the Pope is to Catholics.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:34 PM
 
762 posts, read 987,712 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I recall You once lived in Morocco. That may be the only Islamic Nation we both lived in. My first time was in the very late 1950s. Southern Morocco was then called French Moroco and Northern Morocco was Spanish Morocco.

In Both countries churches were almost as common as Mosques. I can still remember the huge Cathedral that was in the center of Rabat.

Yes in the kingdoms such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the king does not want to build any churches and wont. Keep in mind in Saudi the Royal family owns every bit of real estate and all buildings are built by the Royal family. To ask him to build a Church would be like asking the head of the Westboro Church to use his money to build a Mosque on his private Property.

To ask the King to Build a Christian Church for you is like asking the Pope to build a synagogue in the Vatican.

The King owns the place. Saudi is his own privately owned sand box. It is his sand box and if a person does not like the sand they have to go find a sandbox that agrees with them. When you are in a kingdom you are on private property.

The only Muslim country that claims to be a theocracy is Iran, which is essentially a dictatorship.

Think Catholic Church. Iran is to Shi'i what the Vatican is to Catholics and the aiyatollah is what the Pope is to Catholics.
There may well be churches to be found in cities but I beg to differ that they are as numerous as mosques I lived in the south and I can assure you churches were conspicuous by their absence. There was a small Christian community that met in a "house" church. The Moroccans that attended were Berbers, Berbers were for the most part Christian before the Arabs invaded and converted the population to Islam. There was an air of secrecy to the groups meetings and there was definitely a feeling that we were an unacceptable minority. Although I personally was never made to feel threatened or uncomfortable, but then again I was not a moroccan. Many of my friends were on the receiving end of unpleasantness.

I still have many dear friends in morocco both Christian and muslim. I visit often and I have to say I sometimes regret giving up the little place I had there, especially during the British winter.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefol View Post
There may well be churches to be found in cities but I beg to differ that they are as numerous as mosques I lived in the south and I can assure you churches were conspicuous by their absence. There was a small Christian community that met in a "house" church. The Moroccans that attended were Berbers, Berbers were for the most part Christian before the Arabs invaded and converted the population to Islam. There was an air of secrecy to the groups meetings and there was definitely a feeling that we were an unacceptable minority. Although I personally was never made to feel threatened or uncomfortable, but then again I was not a moroccan. Many of my friends were on the receiving end of unpleasantness.

I still have many dear friends in morocco both Christian and muslim. I visit often and I have to say I sometimes regret giving up the little place I had there, especially during the British winter.
Until the big Earth quake in 1960 ( I think it was 1960) Agadir seemed to be almost 100% Roman Catholic. Kenitra was very French and predominately Roman Catholic at the time I was there. It also had a large Jewish Population. perhaps because I was Catholic at the time the Catholic Churches seemed so prominent to me. I don't think I visited any cities or towns and did not attend Mass in a large church.

The next time I went back was about 15 years later I was no longer Catholic but was a very radical, evangelical fundamentalist and was seeking out Muslims to preach to. I do not recall seeing any churches then.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:39 PM
NDL NDL started this thread
 
Location: Gaston County
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Civil dialogue is not poor etiquette. It is very good etiquette. I am a very strong advocate for all people to question all things.

Disagreement is natural and should always be expected. Disagreement never needs to be a cause for anger or for addressing another person with malice.

We learn the most when we exchange views with those we disagree with. If we all simply limited our discussions to things we agree with, we would stagnant and neither would grow.
I wish that *everyone* had your attitude !

Thank you for your reply. I will respond further, after digesting the information contained within your post.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Islam is very individualistic. We believe each person is responsible for learning what Islam is.
But the majority of Muslims can't adopt this point of view in the most of Islamic countries. Try to say this saying in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan "on twitter for example" and you'll see the consequences.
Muslims should ask the Shaikhs about all aspects of their lives.
فاسألوا اهل الذكر ان كنتم لا تعلمون

Last edited by The Global; 02-02-2013 at 11:12 PM.. Reason: countries was written wrongly, aspect doesn't have it's "s"
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:37 PM
NDL NDL started this thread
 
Location: Gaston County
3,188 posts, read 3,649,057 times
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I want to again thank everyone for their participation in this thread, for I learned a great deal .

As far as replying to Woodrow's points, Nefol expressed the Christian Biblical position more succinctly than I ever could .

Thank you all, again.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by The Global View Post
But the majority of Muslims can't adopt this point of view in the most of Islamic countries. Try to say this saying in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan "on twitter for example" and you'll see the consequences.
Muslims should ask the Shaikhs about all aspects of their lives.
فاسألوا اهل الذكر ان كنتم لا تعلمون
As for asking the people I do not know. It is a bit difficult as I am now very far from any Islamic community. My wife and myself are the only Muslims in the county we live in. Currently nearly every Muslim I know is a Native American revert to Islam, Mostly Lakotah. My wife is a Native American Revert she is from the North Cheyenne Reservation in Montana. She had reverted to Islam long before I met her.

I am very much aware the Saudis do not follow the Hanafi Madhab that I follow. However if I lived in Saudi I would abide by Saudi law Just as I abide by USA law were I live.

However, before Marrying my wife and moving to North Dakota I had been living for 2 years in a predominately Pakistani Neighborhood in Austin with my Youngest Daughter and her Family. My Youngest Daughter's Husband is from Pakistan. And Urdu is the common language spoken in her home. But even after living in an Urdu speaking home and community I never learned Urdu. My Youngest Daughter is not exactly a spring chicken she is near 50 years old and her Husband is over 50.

I had not seen My daughter for over 20 years and never knew she had reverted to Islam over 20 years before we were reunited. It was quite a surprise to both of us to discover we had both accepted Islam. Although she had accepted it 20 years before me. It was after I accepted Islam that my Daughter managed to find me. I was extremely ill and no longer able to care for myself and the VA managed to locate my daughter. I moved in with her. Looked like a better choice than a Nursing home.

Through my daughter I met a number of Pakistani Scholars Much of my Islamic learning came from some well known Pakistani Sheiks and Muftis. Several of which I am still very good friends with and stay in contact with via the internet. In Austin I was granted the title of Sheik and still have a fairly good reputation in Masjid Ibrahim and the Islamic Center of North Austin.

Although to be honest my title of sheik is not through any great accomplishment except for having the misfortune of being the oldest person in the Austin Muslim community. I was also a friend of the late Riad Hamid and active in the original Palestine Children's Welfare Fund.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:10 AM
 
66 posts, read 63,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As for asking the people I do not know. It is a bit difficult as I am now very far from any Islamic community. My wife and myself are the only Muslims in the county we live in. Currently nearly every Muslim I know is a Native American revert to Islam, Mostly Lakotah. My wife is a Native American Revert she is from the North Cheyenne Reservation in Montana. She had reverted to Islam long before I met her.

I am very much aware the Saudis do not follow the Hanafi Madhab that I follow. However if I lived in Saudi I would abide by Saudi law Just as I abide by USA law were I live.

However, before Marrying my wife and moving to North Dakota I had been living for 2 years in a predominately Pakistani Neighborhood in Austin with my Youngest Daughter and her Family. My Youngest Daughter's Husband is from Pakistan. And Urdu is the common language spoken in her home. But even after living in an Urdu speaking home and community I never learned Urdu. My Youngest Daughter is not exactly a spring chicken she is near 50 years old and her Husband is over 50.

I had not seen My daughter for over 20 years and never knew she had reverted to Islam over 20 years before we were reunited. It was quite a surprise to both of us to discover we had both accepted Islam. Although she had accepted it 20 years before me. It was after I accepted Islam that my Daughter managed to find me. I was extremely ill and no longer able to care for myself and the VA managed to locate my daughter. I moved in with her. Looked like a better choice than a Nursing home.

Through my daughter I met a number of Pakistani Scholars Much of my Islamic learning came from some well known Pakistani Sheiks and Muftis. Several of which I am still very good friends with and stay in contact with via the internet. In Austin I was granted the title of Sheik and still have a fairly good reputation in Masjid Ibrahim and the Islamic Center of North Austin.

Although to be honest my title of sheik is not through any great accomplishment except for having the misfortune of being the oldest person in the Austin Muslim community. I was also a friend of the late Riad Hamid and active in the original Palestine Children's Welfare Fund.
I wish you and your family have a long and happy life.
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