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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you told me you were unable to say someone is not a Muslim. It was in the context of a recent killing of a couple of British soldiers, if I recall. A man killed them and then stood on the street and quoted the Koran, saying that he was only doing the work of Allah.
I'm not above saying that evil people use religion--Christianity and Islam alike. But I do think we need to draw a line and say that at least the LRA isn't practicing Christianity.
True I do not know who is or is not a Muslim. I can not see inside any man's heart. I do not know what is inside anyone's heart and thought. You could very well be a Muslim, but doing non-Muslim things.
In the same manner I can say the followers of Wahhabi'ism are following non-Islamic practices. I can state the Wahabbi'ism have stated they do not follow the same religion Sunni follow.
In much the same way the followers of Joseph Kony and the LRA do believe they are the only true Christians in Uganda.They really do believe they are practicing Christians. Just as the wahhabi sincerely believe they are practicing Islam.
Here you will see the vast individuality in Islam. We each carry the responsibility on how we interpret the Qur'an. The Broadcaster spoke only for himself and his own views.
There are those who disagree with me because I do not find anything that commands violence in the Qur'an.
I do read the Tajweed Arabic of the Qur'an and speak the Darija Dialect of Arabic.
I do not find anything in the Qur'an that advocates violence and any violence mentioned I find to be a part of historical record or a description of what will happen in the hereafter to those who are sent to Hellfire.
Each person is free to read the Qur'an and come to their own conclusions. No one is compelled to believe or disbelieve. No one has the right to tell another person how they are supposed to interpret the Qur'an. But for some reason it does seem the Majority of us find it to advocate peace.
Of course we are all free to believe or not to, but unfortunately there are many in one religion who group together and make it a crime to think for yourself. The Koran certainly does advocate murder and if you believe it is wrong in doing so, it is good that you are on this forum to inform others of the same religion.
I don't visit these threads often, but at one time there were characters on her who to my mind were trying to recruit people into the religion and lead them eventually into being terrorists. I have seen, on other forums, people claiming to be Islamists claiming that the religion was one of peace and that everyone actually quoting the Koran advocating bloodshed just had a bad interpretation.
I am not denying that there are good people in Islam. I am just saying what is blatantly obvious - that some very shrewd and evil people seem to have taken control over ignorant masses of people and even entire countries, perpetuating their evil in this religion's name and they find either directions from the Koran to do so, or from venerated holy men who are equally evil and have interpreted the book in this manner.
If you think I am in some way lambasting the religion itself, you would be wrong. I do think authorities should be paying close attention to some who say they are followers because that is where so much of the world's troubles seem to be coming from.
I am Sunni and I follow the Hanafi Madhab . Apostacy is not a Hadd Crime and is not punishable by earthly punishment. Nearly all Muslims are Sunni and the Hanafi Madhab is the largest madhab followed by them.
You may want to read Tafsir and commentaries about Surat 4 in order to understand it. 4:56 is refering to punishment after death in the hellfire. Nothing we are commanded to do
A good source of easily understood commentaries can be found in Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Qur'an HERE
Surah nine was issued as a warning to the pagans in Mecca that were forbidding the Muslim's to do Hajj. It was never a command or order to Muslims. The Warning resulted in a peaceful settlement with no bloodshed.
I haven't read the sites that you told me to yet. I will read them. Thx for the links.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 568 : Narrated by Usama bin Zaid Allah's Apostle sent us towards Al-Huruqa, and in the morning we attacked them and defeated them. I and an Ansari man followed a man from among them and when we took him over, he said, "La ilaha illal-Lah." On hearing that, the Ansari man stopped, but I killed him by stabbing him with my spear. When we returned, the Prophet came to know about that and he said, "O Usama! Did you kill him after he had said "La ilaha ilal-Lah?" I said, "But he said so only to save himself." The Prophet kept on repeating that so often that I wished I had not embraced Islam before that day.
If the man wasn't killed, would that not have fallen into the forced conversion category?
Ibn Kathir will explain the context of Surah 9 verse 29/30
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pg 183-4
Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.
Did you catch the last bit? Can you explain to me why Muhammad decided to fight the Romans?
Surah 9.30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Tafsir Ibn Kathir 9.30
Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.
Is that clear enough for you? Or do you want me to continue?
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24 :
Narrated by Ibn 'Umar
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Buhkari
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387 :
Narrated by Anas bin Malik
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."
Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643 :
Narrated by Qais
Jarir said "Allah's Apostle said to me, "Won't you relieve me from Dhul-Khalasa?" I replied, "Yes, (I will relieve you)." So I proceeded along with one-hundred and fifty cavalry from Ahmas tribe who were skillful in riding horses. I used not to sit firm over horses, so I informed the Prophet of that, and he stroke my chest with his hand till I saw the marks of his hand over my chest and he said, O Allah! Make him firm and one who guides others and is guided (on the right path).' Since then I have never fallen from a horse. Dhul-l--Khulasa was a house in Yemen belonging to the tribe of Khatham and Bajaila, and in it there were idols which were worshipped, and it was called Al-Ka'ba." Jarir went there, burnt it with fire and dismantled it. When Jarir reached Yemen, there was a man who used to foretell and give good omens by casting arrows of divination. Someone said to him. "The messenger of Allah's Apostle is present here and if he should get hold of you, he would chop off your neck." One day while he was using them (i.e. arrows of divination), Jarir stopped there and said to him, "Break them (i.e. the arrows) and testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." So the man broke those arrows and testified that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Then Jarir sent a man called Abu Artata from the tribe of Ahmas to the Prophet to convey the good news (of destroying Dhu-l-Khalasa). So when the messenger reached the Prophet, he said, "O Allah's Apostle! By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I did not leave it till it was like a scabby camel." Then the Prophet blessed the horses of Ahmas and their men five times.
I haven't read the sites that you told me to yet. I will read them. Thx for the links.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 568 : Narrated by Usama bin Zaid Allah's Apostle sent us towards Al-Huruqa, and in the morning we attacked them and defeated them. I and an Ansari man followed a man from among them and when we took him over, he said, "La ilaha illal-Lah." On hearing that, the Ansari man stopped, but I killed him by stabbing him with my spear. When we returned, the Prophet came to know about that and he said, "O Usama! Did you kill him after he had said "La ilaha ilal-Lah?" I said, "But he said so only to save himself." The Prophet kept on repeating that so often that I wished I had not embraced Islam before that day.
If the man wasn't killed, would that not have fallen into the forced conversion category?
Ibn Kathir will explain the context of Surah 9 verse 29/30
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pg 183-4
Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.
Did you catch the last bit? Can you explain to me why Muhammad decided to fight the Romans?
Surah 9.30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Tafsir Ibn Kathir 9.30
Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.
Is that clear enough for you? Or do you want me to continue?
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24 :
Narrated by Ibn 'Umar
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Buhkari
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387 :
Narrated by Anas bin Malik
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."
Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643 :
Narrated by Qais
Jarir said "Allah's Apostle said to me, "Won't you relieve me from Dhul-Khalasa?" I replied, "Yes, (I will relieve you)." So I proceeded along with one-hundred and fifty cavalry from Ahmas tribe who were skillful in riding horses. I used not to sit firm over horses, so I informed the Prophet of that, and he stroke my chest with his hand till I saw the marks of his hand over my chest and he said, O Allah! Make him firm and one who guides others and is guided (on the right path).' Since then I have never fallen from a horse. Dhul-l--Khulasa was a house in Yemen belonging to the tribe of Khatham and Bajaila, and in it there were idols which were worshipped, and it was called Al-Ka'ba." Jarir went there, burnt it with fire and dismantled it. When Jarir reached Yemen, there was a man who used to foretell and give good omens by casting arrows of divination. Someone said to him. "The messenger of Allah's Apostle is present here and if he should get hold of you, he would chop off your neck." One day while he was using them (i.e. arrows of divination), Jarir stopped there and said to him, "Break them (i.e. the arrows) and testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." So the man broke those arrows and testified that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Then Jarir sent a man called Abu Artata from the tribe of Ahmas to the Prophet to convey the good news (of destroying Dhu-l-Khalasa). So when the messenger reached the Prophet, he said, "O Allah's Apostle! By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I did not leave it till it was like a scabby camel." Then the Prophet blessed the horses of Ahmas and their men five times.
More forced conversions
I will work back wards and answer each on a separate post.
Addressing first how I understand this Hadith.
Quote:
Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643 :
Narrated by Qais
Jarir said "Allah's Apostle said to me, "Won't you relieve me from Dhul-Khalasa?" I replied, "Yes, (I will relieve you)." So I proceeded along with one-hundred and fifty cavalry from Ahmas tribe who were skillful in riding horses. I used not to sit firm over horses, so I informed the Prophet of that, and he stroke my chest with his hand till I saw the marks of his hand over my chest and he said, O Allah! Make him firm and one who guides others and is guided (on the right path).' Since then I have never fallen from a horse. Dhul-l--Khulasa was a house in Yemen belonging to the tribe of Khatham and Bajaila, and in it there were idols which were worshipped, and it was called Al-Ka'ba." Jarir went there, burnt it with fire and dismantled it. When Jarir reached Yemen, there was a man who used to foretell and give good omens by casting arrows of divination. Someone said to him. "The messenger of Allah's Apostle is present here and if he should get hold of you, he would chop off your neck." One day while he was using them (i.e. arrows of divination), Jarir stopped there and said to him, "Break them (i.e. the arrows) and testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." So the man broke those arrows and testified that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Then Jarir sent a man called Abu Artata from the tribe of Ahmas to the Prophet to convey the good news (of destroying Dhu-l-Khalasa). So when the messenger reached the Prophet, he said, "O Allah's Apostle! By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I did not leave it till it was like a scabby camel." Then the Prophet blessed the horses of Ahmas and their men five times.
This is a very good example of the difficulty in understanding the Ahadith and why the Ahadith are not considered to be scripture. Anytime there is a conflict between the Qur'an and Ahadith The Qur'an is to be followed.
This is a Sahih Hadith meaning we are reasonably certain Qais is the actual narrator.
Notice carefully Qais did not personally hear or see any of this. He wrote that which an unnamed person relates what Jarir said and did.
Notice no place are we commanded to convert anyone.
Reading this it is possible Jarir did force the diviner to convert. Since the Qur'an forbids us to do that.
I come to 3 possibilities:
1. I am misunderstanding the Hadith.
2. Jarir did something forbidden
3. This was done before the prohibition of forced conversion was revealed.
In no way should this Hadith be taken as permission to force conversions.
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."
This hadith has both high authenticity and reliability.
We can be reasonably certain Muhammad did say:
Quote:
"I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah."
But that does not mean forced conversions or physical confrontations. Also it is not a command for us to harm anyone.
The Qur'an does forbid forced conversions and does forbid Muslims to be transgressors.
There is no indication that Muhammad(saws) was speaking of a physical fight,
Narrated by Ibn 'Umar
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Umar was probably a witness of the same event as reported by ibn Malik in post 45
My answer is the same, it has nothing to do with forced conversions and probably does not even refer to any physical act.
Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-05-2013 at 05:23 PM..
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Tafsir Ibn Kathir 9.30
Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.
While Kathir is one of the earliest scholars and one of the first to give a commentary of the Qur'an. It must be remember all Tafsif (commentary) is the opinion of the person stating it. It is not a command and does not speak for all Muslims.
Ibn Kathir will explain the context of Surah 9 verse 29/30
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pg 183-4
Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.
Did you catch the last bit? Can you explain to me why Muhammad decided to fight the Romans?
It is Kathirs opinion that is the reason Muhammad(saws) decided to fight the Romans. I think he decided to fight them because they were invading.
Ibn Kathir will explain the context of Surah 9 verse 29/30
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pg 183-4
Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.
Did you catch the last bit? Can you explain to me why Muhammad decided to fight the Romans?
It is Kathirs opinion that is the reason Muhammad(saws) decided to fight the Romans. I think he decided to fight them because they were invading.
Since I am not a follower of the "Muslim Brotherhood" I do not put much stock in what al-Qaradawi says.
Quote:
Al-Qaradawi put under house arrest
Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi’s harshly criticized by many religious clerics and scholars due to his policies and issuing several Fatwa’s. It is said that Yusuf Al-Qaradawi for issuing various fatwas caused scores of crimes, slaying and vandalism.
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