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Three widely used Translations M. Asad, Yusuf Ali and M,Picktall Somewhat illustrate the difficculty. Keep in mind Ali often copied Picktall.
4:157 (Asad) and their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so; and, verily, those who hold conflict*ing views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere con*jecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him:
4:157 (Y. Ali) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:157 (Picktall) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain,
شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ
This means, it was seemed to them
so God is saying they didn't crucify him, they didn't kill him but it was seemed to them they did
Did Jesus die on the cross or not? If not who did? Why did Allah need to make it seem like they killed him when all he needed to do was raise him alive in front of his enemies to show that Isa won over his enemies?
Can one burden the sins of another in Islam? If no why was someone else put in the place of Jesus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
What we do know is some of "they" ("They" could be Jews in general or only those trying to Crucify him.) believed they crucified and killed Isa(as).
How that came to be we do not know.
One possibility is the NT is a fraud. Was written by people who never saw Jesus(as).
What I find interesting is Surah 4 was addressed specifically to the Jews of Madinah.
The Quran must be a fraud also since Mohammed never saw Jesus
Did Jesus die on the cross or not? If not who did? Why did Allah need to make it seem like they killed him when all he needed to do was raise him alive in front of his enemies to show that Isa won over his enemies?
Can one burden the sins of another in Islam? If no why was someone else put in the place of Jesus?
We do not know if anyone was crucified in the place of Jesus(as). All we are told is "They" believed he was Crucified and killed. but he wasn't.
Some possibilities arise:
Mistaken Identification?
Substitution?
There was no Crucifixion, just a story written?
No one can carry the sins of another. Even if one could, Being Cricified and killed would be insufficient to gain the forgiveness of even the smallest sin. Only God(swt) can forgive sins and he requires nothing except a person asking with sincerity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong30
The Quran must be a fraud also since Mohammed never saw Jesus
Muhammad(saws) never claimed to be the author of the Qur'an and we do not believe he was. The Qur'an is the repetition of the words spoken by God(swt)
The only scripture in any Abrahamic faith that states to be the actual words of God(swt) not the inspired word of any man.
As it is God(swt) we do believe the author of the Qur'an did see Jesus(as)
It does rather seem on this issue the Quran and muslims don't know an awful lot. Which for an event which had an absolutely massive impact on the world and the human race I would have thought there would have been a clearer answer.
We do not know if anyone was crucified in the place of Jesus(as). All we are told is "They" believed he was Crucified and killed. but he wasn't.
Some possibilities arise:
Mistaken Identification?
Substitution?
No one can carry the sins of another. Even if one could, Being Cricified and killed would be insufficient to gain the forgiveness of even the smallest sin. Only God(swt) can forgive sins and he requires nothing except a person asking with sincerity.
No point going back on forward on this. Much more interesting Islamic topics we could all talk about. I for one could never follow a deceptive deity who tricks people at events then waits 600 years to clarify what exactly happened while calling all the people who witnessed the crucifixion as people who are in error or follow conjecture.
It does rather seem on this issue the Quran and muslims don't know an awful lot. Which for an event which had an absolutely massive impact on the world and the human race I would have thought there would have been a clearer answer.
It's not about the Quran or Mohammed, it's about peoples salvation and ultimately what the truth is or could be. If Allah really made another man take the place of Jesus it makes no sense, since that would mean instead of Jesus dying in apparently the world's place somebody else died in his place. Why was he not okay with Jesus getting crucified but he was more than happy for someone else to take his place?
At the same time Allah says people who actually witnessed the whole thing, such as Mary are in error and only follow untruths.
How can we trust anybody like that? How do we know anything we witness with our eyes is real? How do I know I'm actually talking to you right now and Allah's not deceiving me into thinking you're replying to me?
It does rather seem on this issue the Quran and muslims don't know an awful lot. Which for an event which had an absolutely massive impact on the world and the human race I would have thought there would have been a clearer answer.
Actually the entire world knows very little about it. The Roman/Greek Church had a massive impact on the world and was able to conquer the entire known world, which spread the Bible.
Many different interpretations of what happened or did not happen. Even among Christians you have non-Trinitarians and different ideas of what happened.
Historically we do know there were at least 5 or 6 people named Jesus believed to have been crucified at about the same time maybe even at the same time. The written history may or may not have the frauds mixed up with the facts.
Quote:
historian Flavius Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with this name.[28] The etymology of Jesus' name in the context of the New Testament is generally given as "Yahweh is salvation".[29]
Perhaps the clear answer and the accurate one is Jesus(as) was not crucified. Just a story perpetrated by the Greeks and Romans to create what became the most powerful dictatorship that ever existed. The "Holy Roman Empire" that ruled the world from 962 t0 1806 and still influences today's Western world.
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