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Have you personally seen any Islamic extremists in the USA? Can you name one living American Muslim that is labelled an extremist or know of even one American Mosque that has an extremist label?
Muslims do not tithe. Frankly I have not found any Muslim Extremists here. they will not get any support. You have to be quite wealthy in the USA to be able to open a Mosque, few extremists would meet that criteria.
As for on a world wide basis not just American Muslims but Muslims world wide constantly reject the extremists.
We do not join or belong to Mosques like Christians join churches, the Mosque and the Imam has no control over the community.
We are not centrally directed by any central earthly leadership. we don't even have ordained clergy. Very few if any American Muslims would ever go back to a Mosque if the Imam gave a radical extremist sermon on the Friday Jummah. (Except for Friday Jummah there usually is no sermon at a Mosque.)
Islamic extremists in our Somali community here in Minneapolis is a well known and well documented problem. I am surprised that you are unaware of this living in our neighboring state and all.
There is a significant number of extreme Muslims in the world. It may be a minority, but surveys show that a significant number are sympathetic to extremists. For example, only 78% of American Muslims said that suicide bombing can never be justified. Numbers in other countries were lower. When 22% of a group says suicide bombing can be justified, then I think that group can fairly be said to have a significant radical component. You cannot ignore this and maintain credibility.
Islamic extremists in our Somali community is a well known and well documented problem. I am surprised that you are unaware of this living in our neighboring state and all.
There is a significant number of extreme Muslims in the world. It may be a minority, but surveys show that a significant number are sympathetic to extremists. For example, only 78% of American Muslims said that suicide bombing can never be justified. Numbers in other countries were lower. When 22% of a group says suicide bombing can be justified, then I think that group can fairly be said to have a significant radical component. You cannot ignore this and maintain credibility.
I don't think many of the Minneapolis Somalis have citizen status. I also noticed this paragraph in the article
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Folk said law enforcement and moderate Somalis have reduced the influence of al-Shabab, but the group is still trying to reach out to at-risk Somali men in Minnesota.
No accusation there are any terrorists in Minneapolis, but a fear some might be at risk of becoming such.
The catch on the Question being worded "suicide bombing can never be justified" word NEVER almost demands a no answer. I think a paradox exists as the more educated a person is the more likely they would not be able to say NEVER, American Muslims are among the most educated Muslims on earth. It think the 22% reflects the understanding that NEVER is not a provable concept.
Personally I can not think of any time Suicide would be justified, but that does not mean it can never be justified. Just because I do not see when it is justified, does not mean a Justified reason does not exist. As much as I disapprove of suicide bombing I would be among the 22% as I can not say with certainty a condition could not occur making it justified.
A better question would have been, do you know of a time suicide bombing is justified. That I could answer with an emphatic NO.
I don't think many of the Minneapolis Somalis have citizen status. I also noticed this paragraph in the article
No accusation there are any terrorists in Minneapolis, but a fear some might be at risk of becoming such.
I think you are probably aware that Somalis from Minnesota have been convicted on charges related to terrorism but in case you are not you can read that here.
I think you are also probably aware that you are playing word games here with wbuttons and doesn't meet your test but ok, I will play along.
On what basis will you disqualify John Walker Lindh as a Muslim terrorist who is living and a US citizen?
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The catch on the Question being worded "suicide bombing can never be justified" word NEVER almost demands a no answer. I think a paradox exists as the more educated a person is the more likely they would not be able to say NEVER, American Muslims are among the most educated Muslims on earth. It think the 22% reflects the understanding that NEVER is not a provable concept.
Personally I can not think of any time Suicide would be justified, but that does not mean it can never be justified. Just because I do not see when it is justified, does not mean a Justified reason does not exist. As much as I disapprove of suicide bombing I would be among the 22% as I can not say with certainty a condition could not occur making it justified.
A better question would have been, do you know of a time suicide bombing is justified. That I could answer with an emphatic NO.
Actually, I am quite surprised at your answer here. From all your other posts you seem so reasonable. I would not think it too hard to say that under no circumstances can suicide bombing be justified. That would certainly be my position. I would condemn suicide bombing on the basis of both the suicide aspect and the murder. To hold that it could be justified is a very out of the mainstream and radical position. I would not ascribe your inability to condemn it without qualification to your religion but I do find it shocking that along with nearly a quarter of your fellow Muslims, you hold this position. Perhaps you love your word games too much.
Last edited by Glenfield; 05-10-2014 at 07:52 PM..
I think you are probably aware that Somalis from Minnesota have been convicted on charges related to terrorism but in case you are not you can read that here.
I think you are also probably aware that you are playing word games here with wbuttons and doesn't meet your test but ok, I will play along.
On what basis will you disqualify John Walker Lindh as a Muslim terrorist who is living and a US citizen?
Actually, I am quite surprised at your answer here. From all your other posts you seem so reasonable. I would not think it too hard to say that under no circumstances can suicide bombing be justified. That would certainly be my position. I would condemn suicide bombing on the basis of both the suicide aspect and the murder. To hold that it could be justified is a very out of the mainstream and radical position. I would not ascribe your inability to condemn it without qualification to your religion but I do find it shocking that along with nearly a quarter of your fellow Muslims, you hold this position. Perhaps you love your word games too much.
I just simply do not believe never can be proven. As that would entail knowing every possible scenario that will occur every place for all time in the future.
I just simply do not believe never can be proven. As that would entail knowing every possible scenario that will occur every place for all time in the future.
We are not talking about proving a fact, we are talking about a belief, and if a moral belief is absolute then it is not necessary to know every possible scenario under which it would be true because it will always be true. By failing to condemn suicide bombing absolutely, I am afraid that you have actually demonstrated the point about radicalism of Islam.
And since you did not dispute it, I take it that you acknowledge that John Walker Lindh is an American Muslim terrorist despite your protests that there was no such thing.
We are not talking about proving a fact, we are talking about a belief, and if a moral belief is absolute then it is not necessary to know every possible scenario under which it would be true because it will always be true. By failing to condemn suicide bombing absolutely, I am afraid that you have actually demonstrated the point about radicalism of Islam.
And since you did not dispute it, I take it that you acknowledge that John Walker Lindh is an American Muslim terrorist despite your protests that there was no such thing.
Yes I acknowledge John Walker Lindh is an American Muslim Terrorist. In a broad sense of the word. However he was never charged with Terrorism and never committed any Terrorist acts in the US
He was Charged and convicted of:
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Conspiracy to Murder U.S. Nationals (18 U.S.C. § 2332(b)) (Count One)
I seem to have failed in making myself clear. My belief is Suicide Bombing is always wrong and I condemn it.
But I can not say there is never a time it would not be justified. I do not believe there ever will be, but that is based only upon what I know and believe.
I view Sampson pulling the Temple down upon himself and the soldiers as the Biblical equivalent of a suicide bombing. I believe it was not justified, but I have no way to prove it was not justified. I assume many people do believe it was justified, and I have to face the possibility I might be wrong and it was Justified.
Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-11-2014 at 02:55 PM..
Yes I acknowledge John Walker Lindh is an American Muslim Terrorist. In a broad sense of the word. However he was never charged with Terrorism and never committed any Terrorist acts in the US
There is no need to add additional conditions about convictions and things. Your original question was
Quote:
Have you personally seen any Islamic extremists in the USA? Can you name one living American Muslim that is labelled an extremist or know of even one American Mosque that has an extremist label?
and I think I named him.
Quote:
I seem to have failed in making myself clear. My belief is Suicide Bombing is always wrong and I condemn it.
But I can not say there is never a time it would not be justified. I do not believe there ever will be, but that is based only upon what I know and believe.
I view Sampson pulling the Temple down upon himself and the soldiers as the Biblical equivalent of a suicide bombing. I believe it was not justified, but I have no way to prove it was not justified. I assume many people do believe it was justified, and I have to face the possibility I might be wrong and it was Justified.
This is an interesting point, however, you may be making a common mistake in Biblical interpretation. Acts reported in Biblical narratives are not necessarily being endorsed, it may be that they are simply being reported. They are part of a larger story but because the Bible reports that a person did X it does not mean that the Bible endorses X.
There is no need to add additional conditions about convictions and things. Your original question was
and I think I named him.
You did. I concede my error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenfield
This is an interesting point, however, you may be making a common mistake in Biblical interpretation. Acts reported in Biblical narratives are not necessarily being endorsed, it may be that they are simply being reported. They are part of a larger story but because the Bible reports that a person did X it does not mean that the Bible endorses X.
That will probably remain an unknown as to if it was Justified. As it is unknown you and I can stand here until doomsday stating we do not believe it was justified.
But we really don't know.
Some do consider it Justified. This is probably the strongest argument, I have found, that supports the Justification.
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Another one of these problems is the suicide of Samson, which is undoubtedly portrayed in a glorious light in the Old Testament Book of Judges. How can this be the case when, according to natural law and the Church's perennial teaching, suicide is always wrong? Recall that, since suicide is condemned absolutely as against the natural law, this means that it is now and always was wrong, whether in the Old Testament or the New. How then can we square this teaching with the obvious fact that Samson's suicide is portrayed as a noble action in the Old Testament?
As far as I can tell, there are only seven suicides in the Bible:
Abimelech, son of Gideon, orders his servant to thrust him through with a sword when he realizes he is mortally wounded (Judges 9:50-57). This is indirect, but we will count it as a suicide because Abimelech deliberately chooses to terminate his own life.
The suicide of King Saul, narrated in 1 Samuel 31 and 2 Samuel 1.
The suicide of Saul's armor-bearer in 1 Samuel 31.
The suicide of Ahithopel in 2 Samuel 17:23. Ahitophel, an adviser of Absalom, kills himself after he sees that Absalom has not followed his advice.
King Zimri, in 1 Kings 16:18, kills himself by setting his house on fire and letting it burn with himself inside.
The suicide of Samson in Judges 16:4-31.
The suicide of Judas, depicted in Matthew 27:3-10.
Samson is the only one of these who is righteous; he appears in Hebrews 11 as an example of faithfulness. Therefore, among the suicides of the Bible Samson's is the only we really have to develop an apologetic for because he is the only one who is depicted as a hero. The other six suicides were of wicked men whose suicide was part of their very wickedness (Saul, Judas) or acts of despair or pride (armor-bearer, Abimelech, Ahithopel, Zimri). Not so with Samson. In Samson's case we have a man whose life was marred but many faults but who redeems himself and appears most heroic in the very act of terminating his own life, and taking his foes with him.
The problem with Samson's suicide can be easily resolved if we note that Samson's suicide is different from all the others depicted in the Bible. In the cases of Abimelech, Saul, Judas and the others, the primary intention of each agent in their suicide is the ending of their own life. In Samson's case, we can easily see that his primary motivation in pulling down the Temple of Dagon was not to end his own life but to destroy his Philistine opponents. Ths is evident in his prayer:
That will probably remain an unknown as to if it (Sampson's suicide)was Justified. As it is unknown you and I can stand here until doomsday stating we do not believe it was justified.
But we really don't know.
Some do consider it Justified. This is probably the strongest argument, I have found, that supports the Justification.
As a Nazerite, Sampson was righteous but he made some grave errors and was an ambiguous character. Suicide would not have been his first wrongful deed. But we stray quite always from the original topic if we go there. For another time perhaps.
As a Nazerite, Sampson was righteous but he made some grave errors and was an ambiguous character. Suicide would not have been his first wrongful deed. But we stray quite always from the original topic if we go there. For another time perhaps.
Perhaps.
It could become an interesting topic.
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