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Old 12-18-2007, 10:07 AM
 
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The so called Christian couple were already going to trial for assault on a minority group. THis is nothing about religion, its about being a punk. He's the son of a NY firefighter, loaded with tatoos, and claims he is part of a gang. So, don't get your drawers in a bunch, the Jewish kids weren't being disparaging, the others were just being morons.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:11 AM
 
Location: earth
463 posts, read 508,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Oh please... don't even try to pretend this isn't racially (religiously/culturally) motivated. Jewish people are told "Merry Christmas" on a regular basis - it's happened at least 20 times for me in the last month - and we don't beat anyone up over it. I wasn't there, so I can't say the Jewish people in question weren't rude, but enough to deserve a beating? Whether or not they did it to make a point, to be friendly, or simply to be a smarta--, I guarantee the reaction would have been different if the roles were reversed.

Gizmo Gizmo Gizmo, where to start. How can this be racially motivated. No one was fighting with each other until the Jewish person interjected in someones conversation. If I hear some jew say happy hannukka to one of his buddys I'm not going to jump in and be all "merry christmas". That is tacky, rude, and insensitive. And in New York when you do somthing like that you JUST MIGHT GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE. I'm not here to justify violent actions of others. I'm just saying if maybe this guy kept his outbursts to himself, he would not have been exposed to this violence.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:15 AM
 
Location: earth
463 posts, read 508,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Of course I don't think all Christians are like that... I'm just trying to make a point, that we (Jews & other religious minorities) have to worry about backlash and hate, even over a simple holiday greeting. Christians might think they can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore, but I hear it a million times a day, and nobody gets their faces punched in response.

Im sorry but i just don't feel that. I'd like to see what would happen to a muslim for saying somthing about ramadan in ISREAL. they would probably be hauled off and never seen again. There are no innocents and i get the feeling you are trying to do this whole victim thing. This isnt mountain view or saratoga or what ever. This was a crowded, dangerous, dirty, New York subway, with commuters on their witts end. It was essentially like throwing a lit match into a gun powder keg.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,029,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Vito View Post
Im sorry but i just don't feel that. I'd like to see what would happen to a muslim for saying somthing about ramadan in ISREAL. they would probably be hauled off and never seen again.
Actually, that would be very unlikely, considering there's a large Muslim population in Israel - not just the Gaza strip, mind you. I've been to Israel, and saw plenty of Muslims "mixing" and conversing with the Jews, without trying to kill each other.

Quote:
There are no innocents and i get the feeling you are trying to do this whole victim thing. This isnt mountain view or saratoga or what ever. This was a crowded, dangerous, dirty, New York subway, with commuters on their witts end. It was essentially like throwing a lit match into a gun powder keg.
I wasn't there, so I don't know enough to argue this further... but no, I'm not trying to "play the victim" - just the devil's advocate. You were awfully quick to defend the attackers, without even considering the Jewish guys were innocent. How do you know they didn't wish the Jewish men a Merry Christmas, to which they responded Happy Chanukah? That was how I read the story, not that they interjected into someone's private conversation... why on earth would they do that, especially in a diverse city like NYC? New York has more Jews than Israel, so I'm sure they're all used to living amongst each other at the holiday season, for cryin' out loud. Oh, and I've ridden NY subways many times, and never saw people fighting or killing everyone.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,029,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaharbour View Post
Gizmo..what is it bout christians that you hate so much? I am not one btw, but you seem to have alot of anger here...why?

Its not just christians who beat you over the head..its alot of people, even atheists can be just as irriating, all groups of all extremes are this way, so why single out christians?
How am I singling out Christians? There happen to have been a lot of "Christmas vs. Chanukah" threads recently, due to the time of year... but really, do you think I'd be a moderator if I was spewing hate everywhere? I have absolutely nothing against Christians or the faith, and have many Christian friends & family - both in "real life" and on this board, which I've been posting on for over a year. Sorry if you got the wrong impression, but I don't hate anyone - we (Jewish people) just get a little frustrated in December, LOL.

P.S. For the record, I've never been bothered by Atheists... seeing as they don't believe in religion, they tend to leave us alone altogether. Not to mention, I identify as an Agnostic Jew, so I'm sorta on their side of the fence.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,029,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fopt65 View Post
The so called Christian couple were already going to trial for assault on a minority group. THis is nothing about religion, its about being a punk. He's the son of a NY firefighter, loaded with tatoos, and claims he is part of a gang. So, don't get your drawers in a bunch, the Jewish kids weren't being disparaging, the others were just being morons.
LOL about the "loaded with tattoos" comment... I'm covered in tattoos, and that doesn't make me a punk. But you're right, they were obviously just a-holes, regardless of their religious beliefs!
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,029,897 times
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Oh, but for those who didn't fully read the article, it's clear this was "racially" motivated... when anti-Semitic (racist, etc.) slurs are used during an attack, that clearly becomes an issue of hate. And fyi, somebody YELLED Merry Christmas to the train, so you can't use the excuse of "they interjected into a private conversation." Sounds like someone was sharing holiday greetings to the passengers, so the Jewish men decided to respond with their own - does that deserve a beating?

"Friday's altercation on the Q train began when somebody yelled out "Merry Christmas," to which rider Walter Adler responded, "Happy Hanukkah," said Toba Hellerstein."

"Two women who were with a group of 10 rowdy people then began to verbally assault Adler's companions with anti-Semitic language, Hellerstein said.
One member of the group allegedly yelled, "Oh, Hanukkah. That's the day that the Jews killed Jesus," (LMAO - at least learn your history, lady! ) she said.
When Adler tried to intercede, a male member of the group punched him, she said."
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,029,897 times
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Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
and my point is simply that 1 incident.. 1 backlash does not represent the overwhelming majority of Christians or for that matter a miniority of Chrisitans...

Now if there are other incidents I don't know about I'm all ears.. then there is a trend. Until then its an isolated incident..

Current U.S. population is around 300,000,000.. of which Christians make up (conservatively) around 75% of that or around 225,000,000 people.

So.. we had I believe to be 10 "rowdy" people.. who were hateful.

10 / 225,000,000 = a very small number in the grand scheme of things..
Unfortunately, it's not an isolated trend... maybe this EXACT incident is unique, but Jewish people (and other religious minorities) experience hate on a regular basis. I posted a few examples on the "giant menorah" thread, which included menorahs being desecrated, rocks being thrown through windows with Chanukah displays, and more. Not to mention the armed security we have at the High Holy Days, due to bomb threats & previous crimes, and the many recent occurrences of Synagogues being vandalized with anti-Semitic graffiti. Should I go on? Obviously I don't think ALL Christians/Atheists/etc. are like this, but you can't say this doesn't ever happen.
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:28 PM
 
4,439 posts, read 8,206,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Unfortunately, it's not an isolated trend... maybe this EXACT incident is unique, but Jewish people (and other religious minorities) experience hate on a regular basis. I posted a few examples on the "giant menorah" thread, which included menorahs being desecrated, rocks being thrown through windows with Chanukah displays, and more. Not to mention the armed security we have at the High Holy Days, due to bomb threats & previous crimes, and the many recent occurrences of Synagogues being vandalized with anti-Semitic graffiti. Should I go on? Obviously I don't think ALL Christians/Atheists/etc. are like this, but you can't say this doesn't ever happen.

Yes but you stated "We know know the answer to the question of what will happen when we say Happy Chanukah back". My premise is that we don't know.. I'm confident that 9.9 times out of 10 this type of thing doesn't happen when you say Happy Chanukah back.

Maybe we can settle on "We know the answer to the question of what will happen when we say Happy Chanukah back to a bunch of idiots.." I agree with you there..

Alas.. most interesting is now they were a "gang"..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...wsubway116.xml

Pictures of the "Gang" at the bottom of this story..

http://themoderatevoice.com/society/...a-still-lives/

Video of Mr. Adler (one of the victims)

http://www.nypost.com/video/?vxSiteI...&vxBitrate=700

And now the story is getting a little muddy.. one side is saying something different..

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/14/subway.attack/
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Camberville
12,030 posts, read 16,768,354 times
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Ironically enough, I got a phone call from my brother last night from the police office after he was beat up in the parking lot of a local store having wished the sales girl a Happy Chanukkah. 3 guys must have heard and followed him to his (my mom's) car and knocked him down from behind, kicked him, broke the present (mine) that he bought, and keyed the car all while yelling ethnic slurs. He went to the police but asked it not to go to the press... not that he thought the police took him seriously. He's a pretty shy kid and is horrified that anyone might find out what happened to him. He told people that the dog knocked him over to explain his bruises.


So out of life experiences that both my brother and I have experienced growing up, this is VERY common. I may have never gotten beat up, but it was often only the PALESTINIAN girl in my class who would come to my aid. However, you would expect that in Georgia- not so with New York which has a huge Jewish population. I mean, obviously the one act with my brother is a copycat group of losers who were looking for a reason to beat someone up... but had he not said "Happy Chanukah" then he wouldn't have been made the target.
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