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Old 09-25-2014, 06:02 AM
 
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International group of Muslim scholars “refutes” Islamic State’s Islamic case — while endorsing jihad, Sharia, caliphate


The Hamas-linked Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and the Fiqh Council of North America held a press conference in Washington today at which they declared that they had refuted the religious ideology of the Islamic State. They issued this lengthy “Open Letter” (not, interestingly enough, a fatwa) addressed to the Islamic State’s caliph Ibrahim, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, explaining how he was misunderstanding Islam. Is this an Islamic case against the Islamic State’s jihad terror that will move Islamic State fighters to lay down their arms? Or is it a deceptive piece designed to fool gullible non-Muslim Westerners into thinking that the case for “moderate Islam” has been made, but which will not change a single jihadi’s mind? Unfortunately, it is the latter.
To be sure, Hamas-linked CAIR and the Fiqh Council and all the signers of this Open Letter really do oppose the Islamic State. But they don’t oppose it because it is transgressing against the commands of what they believe to be a Religion of Peace. They oppose it because they want to establish a caliphate under the auspices of or led by the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Islamic State constitutes competition. This is clear from their sly endorsements in this document of jihad, the Sharia, and the concept of the caliphate.
It begins with an “Executive Summary” which is then filled out in greater detail. I will intersperse commentary below, first in general terms on the Executive Summary, and then taking up the arguments on each point in detail.
Executive Summary
1- It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an—or part of a verse—to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas, and one cannot ‘cherry- pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith.
This is a null argument designed to appeal to non-Muslims who don’t know what is in the Qur’an. For unless one quotes the entire Qur’an and Hadith, this argument can be leveled against anyone: anyone can be accused of leaving out important points and ignoring contradictory material. Whether or not one has actually done so, however, is another matter.
2- It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.
Red herring. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the caliph of the Islamic State, is a native Arabic speaker with a Ph.D in Islamic Studies.
3- It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.
Again, this is an empty charge, as it can be leveled against anyone.
4- It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.
No doubt the caliph would agree with Hamas-linked CAIR and the Fiqh Council on this. He might differ with them on what exactly constitutes “fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.”
5- It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.
This one is quite telling. It suggests that there is a certain accommodation Muslim believers must make to the times and to circumstance, without changing core principles — i.e., the problem with the Islamic State is not its beliefs, but their application, and the time may be right for the application of those beliefs at some other time, but not now.
6- It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.
Indeed, but who is innocent? The Islamic State jihadis don’t believe they are killing the innocent.
7- It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.
None of these are blanket prohibitions; infidels considered to be at war with Islam can be killed and, according to Islamic law, must be killed.
8- Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.
Disingenuous. Islamic law holds that the caliph alone has the authority to wage offensive jihad. The Islamic State considers itself to be the caliphate, and thus considers its caliph to have that privilege and responsibility.
9- It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.
What constitutes an open declaration of disbelief? The Sudanese government executed Mahmoud Mohammed Taha for heresy after he said that the Qur’an’s Meccan suras, which are more peaceful, should supersede the Medinan suras, which are more violent. He wasn’t expressing disbelief in Islam, but was nonetheless executed as someone who had departed from the faith of Islam.
10- It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.
The Qur’an says to fight against and subjugate them (9:29). Once they submit, they should not be harmed or mistreated. But if they are considered to be in rebellion or war against the Muslims, they must be fought.
11- It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.
Here again, in a hadith, Muhammad instructs Muslims to invite the unbelievers to Islam, and subjugate them or go to war with them if they refuse. If the Yazidis refused the invitation to convert, they could lawfully be fought.
12- The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.
This is flatly false. Slavery is still widely practiced in North Africa, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere because it is sanctioned in Islam.
13- It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.
True, but the laws of dhimmitude are designed essentially to make life miserable for non-Muslims until they opt to convert as their only means to a better existence. Thus the boundaries of what constitutes coercion are somewhat blurred.
14- It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.
Indeed. But what are those rights?
15- It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.
Indeed. But what are those rights?
16- It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud) without following the correct procedures that ensure justice and mercy.
This one is noteworthy, for by it Hamas-linked CAIR and the Fiqh Council and all these scholars affirm that hudud punishments — stoning for adultery, amputation for theft, death for leaving Islam, etc. — can be enacted as long as one is following the correct procedures.
17- It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.
At Khaybar, Muhammad ordered that a fire be lit upon Kinana’s chest until he told the Muslims where the Jews’ treasury was hidden. So what constitutes “torture” is, like so many things in Islam, subject to interpretation.
18- It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.
“When the prophet ordered that the corpses of the polytheists be dropped in to a well… He stood over the bodies of twenty-four leaders of Quraish, who had been thrown into one of the wells and started call them by name and by the names of their fathers…” (Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum, The Battle of Badr, p. 271)
19- It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God.
Once again, a subjective and empty argument — no doubt the Islamic State would deny doing this.
20- It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.
“Ali ibn Abi Talib said to me: “Shall I not send you on the same mission as the Messenger of Allah sent me? Do not leave any statue without erasing it, and do not leave any raised grave without leveling it.” (Muslim 969).
21- Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler and not allowing people to pray.
The Islamic State has stated that the rulers against whom they are fighting have expressed clear disbelief.
22- It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.
This is pure fiction. None of the historic caliphates were established by consensus from all Muslims. Even the first three “Rightly Guided” caliphs were chosen over bitter opposition from the party of Ali, the shiat Ali, which ultimately became the Shi’ites. Also, note that Hamas-linked CAIR, the Fiqh Council and the scholars take for granted that the concept of a caliphate is legitimate; they just don’t like this particular one
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Actions speak louder than words

This is how most Muslims feel about ISIS


Quote:
Female Pilot Led UAE Airstrikes Against ISIS
Maj. Mariam Al Mansouri, 35, was first woman to join Emirates' air force
By Jenn Gidman, Newser Staff

(Newser) – If a country's going to send military pilots to fight ISIS, it's going to send its very best. Which is why the United Arab Emirates selected Maj. Mariam Al Mansouri, 35—the first female fighter pilot in the Emirates air force—to lead one of its airstrike missions in Syria on Monday,
SOURCE
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Old 09-25-2014, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Just addressing this part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
2- It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.
Red herring. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the caliph of the Islamic State, is a native Arabic speaker with a Ph.D in Islamic Studies.
We do not even know Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's real name. He has used so many aliases he is an unknown. about the only thing known is he began as a member of al-Qaeed. but not much more is known about him. there is no verification he has a Ph.D in anything or if he even has a grade school education.


Quote:
In October 2011, the US officially designated Baghdadi as "terrorist" and offered a $10m (£5.8m; 7.3m euros) reward for information leading to his capture or death.

It notes Baghdadi's aliases, including Abu Duaa and Dr Ibrahim Awwad Ibrahim Ali al-Badri al-Samarrai.

As well as the uncertainty surrounding his true identity, his whereabouts are also unclear with reports he was in Raqqa in Syria.

So there remain more questions than answers about the leader of one of the world's most dangerous jihadist groups
SOURCE

For fun the conspiracy theories are begining to form as they often do when something or someone can not be verified. Some really bizarre ones are popping, probably all as accurate as his alleged Ph.D

For laughs (Would be laughs if he was not so dangerous)


HERE

HERE

We know very little about al-Baghdadi and probably do not know his real identity. we only have his Say so that he is/was Dr Ibrahim Awwad Ibrahim Ali al-Badri al-Samarrai.

There is no evidence he really is Dr Ibrahim Awwad Ibrahim Ali al-Badri al-Samarrai. Who also seems to be an unknown.
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Old 09-25-2014, 06:54 PM
 
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Actual leaders and countries are in the background, because of the world condemnation of them.

Once they are strong enough, if that happens, they will come out.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Actual leaders and countries are in the background, because of the world condemnation of them.

Once they are strong enough, if that happens, they will come out.
Muslim Nations have any financial or military power. the few that have any clout Saudi, Turkey, UAE, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia have come out strongly opposed to ISIS and are showing it with Military support fighting ISIS.

The remainder of the Islamic Nations account for only a very small percentage of the world's Muslims and are very undeveloped.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:55 PM
 
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Hmmm


Wonder where all of these muslims are getting the Idea to do, as is written about muhammed.

Are all these Arabic speaking and reading people getting the message wrong.

Wonder why none of these muslim panels cannot get on a national discussion showing the world what they are doing is wrong.

All they can do is complain and offer statements without having to answer for what they say.
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Hmmm


Wonder where all of these muslims are getting the Idea to do, as is written about muhammed.

Are all these Arabic speaking and reading people getting the message wrong.

Wonder why none of these muslim panels cannot get on a national discussion showing the world what they are doing is wrong.

All they can do is complain and offer statements without having to answer for what they say.

Right now virtually every act of terrorism is being done by members of ISIS. ISIS has been having a daily income of 3 million dollars per day from the selling of Iraqi oil. That not religion is the drawing card for people to join ISIS, not the teachings of any religion.


There is no Muslim Panel that represents all or even a majority of Muslims. Besides an Islamic panel showing a favorable side of Islam, is not likely to be a media grabber and won't get any media source to show them. The media is all about profit, and that would not be a money generator. In addition the fear of Islam is proving to be a workable method of distracting the American public away from our exploding internal problems. Police Departments have become loose cannons Almost daily there are reports of a police officer killing without justification. Mass shootings have become a monthly happening. Not to mention crime rates, Drug addiction, Rising food prices, increased poverty, etc.

Currently we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Quote:
Incarceration in the United States of America is one of the main forms of punishment, rehabilitation, or both for the commission of felony and other offenses. The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world. At year-end 2009, it was 743 adults incarcerated per 100,000 population.[3][4][5][6][7]

According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2011 – about 0.94% of adults in the U.S. resident population.[4] Additionally, 4,814,200 adults at year-end 2011 were on probation or on parole.[8] In total, 6,977,700 adults were under correctional supervision (probation, parole, jail, or prison) in 2011 – about 2.9% of adults in the U.S. resident population.[8] A 2014 report published by the National Research Council asserts that the prison population of the United States "is by far the largest in the world. Just under one-quarter of the world's prisoners are held in American prisons."[9]

In addition, there were 70,792 juveniles in juvenile detention in 2010.[10]

Although debtor's prisons no longer exist in the United States, residents of some U.S. states can still be incarcerated for debt as of 2014.[11][12][13]

According to a 2014 report by Human Rights Watch, "tough-on-crime" laws adopted since the 1980s have filled U.S. prisons with mostly nonviolent offenders.[14]
SOURCE

Nearly 7,000,000 people convicted of crimes, over 100 times the number of people connected with ISIS.

When has any American apoligized for our crime rate? Where is the outrage over Crime in the USA? Where is a panel going public to argue that this is not a teaching of being American.

Ridiculous questions, but no more ridiculous than asking the same questions about Islam.
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:32 PM
 
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We can narrow down crime in the US but it gets ugly, and is another story altogether.

We get heavily into racial stats, not religious ones.

Not a subject for this thread.
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Old 09-25-2014, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
We can narrow down crime in the US but it gets ugly, and is another story altogether.

We get heavily into racial stats, not religious ones.

Not a subject for this thread.
Perhaps, but I do not believe many of the acts attributed to Islam are caused by Islam. rather they are the acts of people acting out of their own choices. Often with an agenda for personal gain.
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Perhaps, but I do not believe many of the acts attributed to Islam are caused by Islam. rather they are the acts of people acting out of their own choices. Often with an agenda for personal gain.
This is where the terror meter comes in handy, it differenciates terror caused by muslims, and terror caused by muslims for the religion.

If they just used muslims, the number would be estimated 3 times as high.
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