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Old 10-18-2014, 07:39 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
And for the very same reason hollering "Allahu Akbar" is not proof the person was Muslim.

Do you really believe that in those 23,000 terrorist incidents there were witnesses that stated they heard the Terrorist holler "Allahu Akbar" especially since that is not what we say when starting a task in Allaah(swt)'s name. When we do something in the name of Allaah(swt) we are to say "Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem" (In the name of Allah, the most beneficent, the most merciful"

See HERE

Methinks the site is doing some creative reporting.
Every one listed can be verified,

You do not make the list by being a muslim, if that were the case the list would be 3 times what it is.

Read the criteria, and any one can be checked out.
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Old 10-18-2014, 09:17 PM
 
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So...those points to which you do not have a reply to are "bad arguments"....?....I suppose I can see how that might be....
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Old 10-18-2014, 11:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
So...those points to which you do not have a reply to are "bad arguments"....?....I suppose I can see how that might be....
And which would those be, I replied to most, and agree, when I agree with them.

If I did not reply, it would probably be an oversight.
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Old 10-19-2014, 10:53 PM
 
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My understanding of your position is that you believe the Quran was written by a bunch of people with evil intent and that the most correct way to understand it is to go "back" to (selective) "original sources". (If I misunderstood I apologize).

I do not agree with your premise but for the purpose of this discussion let us take the premise as is---It is always better for humanity that we progress towards peace, respect for each other, promotion of noble human values, and concern for all God's creations.

Therefore it is always a good thing if human beings take bad ideas and re-interpret them into good...such as the American people becoming more inclusive in their understanding of "We the people" and "all men are created equal". Anyone who insists that these ideas must be understood and implemented only in their "original" meaning is doing a disservice to humanity.

Likewise, if there are many interpretations of the Quran, then it is in the best interests of humanity that good ideas be promoted and bad ideas be discouraged. ---That is the advice of the Quran.....

Quran 39:18
Sahih International: Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding.

Pickthall: Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.

Yusuf Ali: Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.

and.......

Quran Surah 23 verse 96

"Repel evil with that which is best: We are well aquainted with the things they say"


....So the most "right" understanding of the Quran is one that promotes the best in humanity---which is right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.
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Old 10-20-2014, 09:13 AM
 
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You're understanding is somewhat flawed.

The Qur'an as was written or used, during Muhammeds time no longer exists.

A person has to go into the creation of the Qur'an of today to understand it.

When you consider the earliest fragments are 100 years to late to be considered accurate, and these differ anyway, we are only left with common sense to evaluate. The full version is from the 9th century, not the 7th.

What you have now is a haphazardly assembled collection of philosophers quotes, many re-written from earlier text from different religions from the area

You have power plays from the different rulers modifying, text to suit their own needs.

Keep in mind, Ishaq and Taburi were written before the Qur'an of today, and set the rules, the guidelines for conquest, for God.
God gives the power to the people in charge to conquer, rob, rape, and kill at their discretion, and use as an excuse, the victims are non=believers, and deserve their fate, giving 20% of the booty captured to the leaders.

The Qur'an of today is a tool, to keep the sheep in line, a person can spend his entire life with it and never understand it.
The religion is run by the Sunnah, and Sira.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:47 PM
 
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9th century---I do not agree with your assumptions---but even if we were to suppose the Quran is a modern book of Guidance for modern people---both the Quran and Islam are here to stay. So either historically or in today's context---promoting the best possible understanding is the better option for humanity.

Conquer, rob...etc---Are you trying to recruit me for ISIS? ---if that is your understanding of Islam---I am very grateful that you are not a Muslim!!! (at least I hope you are not)

Sheep in line----I think the Quran is Guidance that empowers people---but even if we were to suppose that it is a book "to keep people in line"---there is a need for a philosophy that will encourage humans to restrain its desires for violence and wars of greed, power, revenge...---Most religions (with the exception of faith-based Christianity?) do the job of working as restraints to the worst of human behavior.

I understand the Quran very well---would you like to read it with me....?......

I agree that Sunna/Sira are important.
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
9th century---I do not agree with your assumptions---but even if we were to suppose the Quran is a modern book of Guidance for modern people---both the Quran and Islam are here to stay. So either historically or in today's context---promoting the best possible understanding is the better option for humanity.

Conquer, rob...etc---Are you trying to recruit me for ISIS? ---if that is your understanding of Islam---I am very grateful that you are not a Muslim!!! (at least I hope you are not)

Sheep in line----I think the Quran is Guidance that empowers people---but even if we were to suppose that it is a book "to keep people in line"---there is a need for a philosophy that will encourage humans to restrain its desires for violence and wars of greed, power, revenge...---Most religions (with the exception of faith-based Christianity?) do the job of working as restraints to the worst of human behavior.

I understand the Quran very well---would you like to read it with me....?......

I agree that Sunna/Sira are important.
The first dead giveaway is the written language all of Islam is written in, Classical Arabic.
a language invented in the 9th century.

This language is also the same language Allah taught to Adam and Muhammed.

According to Islam the language and the pen, existed before man.

something easy to write, believe and enforce, a thousand years ago, but now we know different.

Earlier fragments of the Qur'an are written in a different script, I would have to look up the names, but these are hidden from all. Google ..Sana Qur'an's.

And Yes, the biography of Muhammed is a chain of conquests, for booty, and interesting reading, weather you believe it or not, and is the only reference on the planet for him.
The truth in it is questionable, as Muhammed is considered to be a composite character by most scholars, but the story line is plain as day.
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:39 PM
 
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I want to point out, I am not questioning your integrity or sincerity, as a muslim, from your writings you seem to be an honorable person to me.

and it is not the direction many muslims take, following along your point of view.

muslims are human beings, susceptible to the influences around them.

However when you only take portions of the religion, and try to pass them off as Islam, you are mistaken.
When you use abrogated verses and claim them as real, it is misleading, to the point of Taquyyia.

Why do you suppose we have so many people all around the world that are misunderstanding the religion, and for some mysterious reason, the misunderstanding always goes in the same direction as the written doctrine.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:03 PM
 
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Quran 3:104

Sahih International: And let there be [arising] from you a nation inviting to [all that is] good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and those will be the successful.

Pickthall: And there may spring from you a nation who invite to goodness, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency. Such are they who are successful.

Yusuf Ali: Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.

Good people must encourage others in the direction of goodness and discourage from badness.

As Woodrow pointed out---God has created humanity in goodness (fitra) and given us intelligence and free-will. With these blessings comes the responsibility of being accountable for our choices.

Misunderstanding religion---IMO, there are many reasons....
Identity----Today many people---both religious and non-religious---are looking for identity. We live in an increasingly globalized world and this requires adjustment. During periods of adjustments there is uncertainty---but in looking for certainty---we create tensions with others. For example, when people try to form an identity based on what they are not---and in particular---what group is excluded because they represent what they are not---this type of identity formation can be dangerous because it can lead to bigotry and prejudice.

Justification---People are inherently good. This means that when they go against their nature and do bad---they need justification. That is why when the U.S. went to war---they came up with all sorts of justifications such as "spreading democracy"...etc. When violent men abuse women, they justify it with excuses that "she was behaving badly, she was asking for it"....etc

Human Diversity---God created us in diversity and this is an asset. We all have different needs and experiences and thoughts. This diversity is a blessing. But this means that various interpretations, view-points, philosophies are a part of our shared human experience. For example, if you watch a Movie with a group of friends and discuss it afterwards, there will be various opinions and observations---what each person enjoyed or took from the movie may be similar or different....and that is OK. So---if someone interprets a religion in a way that makes me uncomfortable or with which I disagree---that is OK. What is not OK is when such ideas create harm to others by promoting excessive hate, prejudice, bigotry, and violence.

Quran 10:99
"If your lord had willed, all the people on earth would have come to believe, one and all. Are you going to compel the people to believe against their will"

That is the benefit of the written Guidance. It empowers human beings to choose of their own free will to be Guided by it and to what degree they are guided by it. But with this right/freedom, also comes the responsibility of being held accountable for our choices.
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:55 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
Quran 3:104



Yusuf Ali: Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.

Good people must encourage others in the direction of goodness and discourage from badness.

.

Bingo.

One of the problems is where are all of these good people, (muslims) to speak out when other muslim do bad, claiming the religion as a reason.

Here again, what is bad for one, is not for another.
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