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Old 10-07-2014, 11:02 AM
 
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What sects have developed out of Islam is one thing, but does not speak for islam itself.


IsIS is following the footsteps of Muhammed very closely.
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Old 10-07-2014, 11:04 AM
 
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ISIS did not just wake up one day and decide to act the way they do, they referenced ad studied their actions, and it just happens to be the exact same thing Islam is documented as preaching.

Some coincidence huh.
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Old 10-07-2014, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
ISIS did not just wake up one day and decide to act the way they do, they referenced ad studied their actions, and it just happens to be the exact same thing Islam is documented as preaching.

Some coincidence huh.
Sorry, ISIS is based upon wahabbi and is not following one of the 4 madhabs, which are the practical application of Sunnah.

They are not following Sunnah or the Qur'an. Wahabbi'ism was a heresy that formed 200 years ago.

As I've stated many times before neither the Sunnah nor the Qur'an command the killing of non-Muslims.

This is an innovation of radicals and those who seek to use Islam for their own purposes.
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Old 10-07-2014, 03:03 PM
 
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Woodrow,

I have posted many posts where islam does kill non muslims, in fact, they are the first target.

And it does not matter if they are whabbies, Al Queda, Hamas etc.

All groups use the Qur'an and sunnah
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Old 10-07-2014, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Woodrow,

I have posted many posts where islam does kill non muslims, in fact, they are the first target.

And it does not matter if they are whabbies, Al Queda, Hamas etc.

All groups use the Qur'an and sunnah
And it is each individuals responsibility to verify they are interpreting it correctly. the vast majority of us do not interpret it as commanding the wanton killing of non-Muslims.

While it is probable some people will misinterpret the Qur'an and Sunnah a safe guard is in place in that we are not to take the law in our own hands and abide by a Madhab.

A Madhab is one of the 4 recognized schools of Islamic Jurisprudence and is the practiacal application of sunnah defined as Laws (Shariah)
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Old 10-07-2014, 05:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
And it is each individuals responsibility to verify they are interpreting it correctly. the vast majority of us do not interpret it as commanding the wanton killing of non-Muslims.

While it is probable some people will misinterpret the Qur'an and Sunnah a safe guard is in place in that we are not to take the law in our own hands and abide by a Madhab.

A Madhab is one of the 4 recognized schools of Islamic Jurisprudence and is the practiacal application of sunnah defined as Laws (Shariah)

Do you mean misinterpret , or misrepresent??????


There is no question of interpretation, The killings of non muslims are very plain to read, and specifically ordered to convert or die, with some exceptions, slaves, Dhimmine's, etc. and if one verse is not enough, I could easily come up with ten more.


You cannot possibly take dozens of verses, and rewrite/retranslate, one that suits you, and expect that to overshadow the multitude of others, that say otherwise.
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Old 10-07-2014, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Do you mean misinterpret , or misrepresent??????


There is no question of interpretation, The killings of non muslims are very plain to read, and specifically ordered to convert or die, with some exceptions, slaves, Dhimmine's, etc. and if one verse is not enough, I could easily come up with ten more.


You cannot possibly take dozens of verses, and rewrite/retranslate, one that suits you, and expect that to overshadow the multitude of others, that say otherwise.
I mean misinterpret.

Many people fail to take the context into consideration and seem to think all ayyats of the Qur'an and Ahadith are stand alone statements. Very few are, one needs to read the entire Surat and relate that into what was said, It also helps to know the history of the Surat and the reasons for it's revelation.

One should also seek the guidelines of how others followed Islam and their reasons. Being Muslim does not mean simply reading the Qur'an and Ahadith. It requires a life long study of how and why people did as they did.

The best guidelines are to read as many tafsir possible and to do an in depth study of one of the 4 Madhabs.
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:04 AM
 
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This s the exact wording I use all the time, and do muslims,...."The context".

Muslims are quick to say, "it's out of context", as an excuse to change the meaning.

I stress the context, as important, but I also put it into it's correct one, much to the ire of people just using the words.

I separate the meccan and medina Qur'ans, and I also like to put the comment, verse, into it's time frame, and location, along with the audience.
I also like to put up comparative verses, by different writers.

I really stress the correct context. few muslims like that.


"Taking it out of context", is something I confronted muslims with, saying, OK, you show me what context this is in. with documentation,
Unfortunately, they can never come up with one.
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
This s the exact wording I use all the time, and do muslims,...."The context".

Muslims are quick to say, "it's out of context", as an excuse to change the meaning.

I stress the context, as important, but I also put it into it's correct one, much to the ire of people just using the words.

I separate the meccan and medina Qur'ans, and I also like to put the comment, verse, into it's time frame, and location, along with the audience.
I also like to put up comparative verses, by different writers.

I really stress the correct context. few muslims like that.


"Taking it out of context", is something I confronted muslims with, saying, OK, you show me what context this is in. with documentation,
Unfortunately, they can never come up with one.
Just using one example:

One of the favorite ones quoted by those opposed to Islam and believe it teaches Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims.

9:5 (Asad) And so, when the sacred months are over , slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place !

Even then just half the ayyat is quoted, instead of the fulll ayyat which would be:

9:5 (Asad) And so, when the sacred months are over , slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place ! Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

But even that leaves the wrong impression as it is just part of the whole paragraph, which is recited as:

(Keep in mind in the actual Arabic there are no line numbers or punctuation)

Quote:
DISAVOWAL by God and His Apostle [is herewith announced] unto those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God, [and] with whom you [O: believers] have made a covenant. [Announce unto them:] "Go, then, [freely] about the earth for four months -but know that you can never elude God, and that, verily, God shall bring disgrace upon all who refuse to acknowledge the truth!" And a proclamation from God and His Apostle [is herewith made] unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage: "God disavows all who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, and [so does] His Apostle. Hence, if you repent, it shall be for your own good; and if you turn away, then know that you can never elude God!" And unto those who are bent on denying the truth give thou [O Prophet] the tiding of grievous chastisement.But excepted shall be -from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - [people] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant and who thereafter have in no wise failed to fulfil their obligations towards you, and neither have aided anyone against you: observe, then, your covenant with them until the end of the term agreed with them. Verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him.And so, when the sacred months are over , slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place ! Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace. And if any of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God seeks thy protection, grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure: this, because they [may be] people who [sin only because they] do not know [the truth]. HOW COULD they who ascribe divinity to aught beside God be granted a covenant by God and His Apostle, unless it be those [of them] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant in the vicinity of the Inviolable House of Worship? As for the latter,] so long as they remain true to you, be true to them: for, verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him. How [else could it be]? -since, if they [who are hostile to you] were to overcome you, they would not respect any tie [with you,] nor any obligation to protect [you]. They seek to please you with their mouths, the while their hearts remain averse [to you]; and most of them are iniquitous.God's messages have they bartered away for a trifling gain, and have thus turned away from His path: evil, behold, is all that they are wont to do, respecting no tie and no protective obligation with regard to a believer; and it is they, they who transgress the bounds of what is right! Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, they become your brethren in faith: and clearly do We spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge! But if they break their solemn pledges after having concluded a covenant, and revile your religion, then fight against these archetypes of faithlessness who, behold, have no [regard for their own] pledges, so that they might desist [from aggression].
This was explaining that a group had a treaty with the Muslims and the group had violated the treaty. This was notification that the treaty was now null, because the group had violated it, it was a command for the group to get out of town as they were now considered enemies and would be treated as such if they refused to leave.

This is not a command that Muslims are to kill all non-Muslims
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Old 10-08-2014, 08:16 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,084,700 times
Reputation: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just using one example:

One of the favorite ones quoted by those opposed to Islam and believe it teaches Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims.

9:5 (Asad) And so, when the sacred months are over , slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place !

Even then just half the ayyat is quoted, instead of the fulll ayyat which would be:

9:5 (Asad) And so, when the sacred months are over , slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place ! Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

But even that leaves the wrong impression as it is just part of the whole paragraph, which is recited as:

(Keep in mind in the actual Arabic there are no line numbers or punctuation)



This was explaining that a group had a treaty with the Muslims and the group had violated the treaty. This was notification that the treaty was now null, because the group had violated it, it was a command for the group to get out of town as they were now considered enemies and would be treated as such if they refused to leave.

This is not a command that Muslims are to kill all non-Muslims

And here you are inventing your own context.
This quote mimics a lot of others, basically saying "convert or die".

You are quoting from sura 9, which is Medina, and over 110, in chronological order, and near the end of Muhammeds rule, and life.

Similar quotes from the same time period, include the expulsion, and murder, of all the Jews from the Arabian penn.

This is written after the murder of 900 jewish males, and the capture and distribution of the women, land, livestock.

This quote did not explain a violation of a treaty, if it did, I would like to see it.

Remember muhammed was the aggressor, and there were no treaties, other than pay the jizya or die.
I can post numerous quotes, of what is going on within this time period.

If you have another context this is written in, I would like to see it.
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