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Old 10-08-2014, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
And here you are inventing your own context.
This quote mimics a lot of others, basically saying "convert or die".

You are quoting from sura 9, which is Medina, and over 110, in chronological order, and near the end of Muhammeds rule, and life.

Similar quotes from the same time period, include the expulsion, and murder, of all the Jews from the Arabian penn.

This is written after the murder of 900 jewish males, and the capture and distribution of the women, land, livestock.

This quote did not explain a violation of a treaty, if it did, I would like to see it.

Remember muhammed was the aggressor, and there were no treaties, other than pay the jizya or die.
I can post numerous quotes, of what is going on within this time period.

If you have another context this is written in, I would like to see it.
Ayyat 4 is the first place a treaty is alluded to.

9:4 (Asad) But excepted shall be -from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - [people] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant and who thereafter have in no wise failed to fulfil their obligations towards you, and neither have aided anyone against you: observe, then, your covenant with them until the end of the term agreed with them. Verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him.

Other places in the surah it is mentioned:

9:7 (Asad) HOW COULD they who ascribe divinity to aught beside God be granted a covenant by God and His Apostle, unless it be those [of them] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant in the vicinity of the Inviolable House of Worship? [As for the latter,] so long as they remain true to you, be true to them: for, verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him.

9:12 (Asad) But if they break their solemn pledges after having concluded a covenant, and revile your religion, then fight against these archetypes of faithlessness who, behold, have no [regard for their own] pledges, so that they might desist [from aggression].






Yes you can post numerous "Quotes" all single ayyats or parts of an ayyat. Very few of them telling the entire revelation. Even less are to be considered a command.

The Qur'an is the RECITED recitation. The Written book commonly called the Qur'an is more properly the "Kitaab ul-Quran" or Book of Recitations. To be fully understood the Qur'an must be listened to. there are very strict rules regarding the recitation such as:

Each letter must be pronounced distinctly and with proper tajweed. (The meaning of an Arabic word often changes based upon the pronunciation.)

A minimum of 9 consecutive lines must be recited or in the case of a shorter Surah, the entire Surah. As in the Qur'anic recitations there is no punctuation. One can determine what corresponds as paragraphs by changes of rhythm

Surah 9 consists of 8 different but related topics

Here I will get lazy and copy and paste:

Quote:
Topics and their Interconnection

This portion deals with the sanctity of treaties and lays down principles, rules and regulations which must be kept in view before breaking them, in case the other party does not observe them sincerely. 1 - 12

In this portion the Muslims have been urged to fight in the Way of Allah with the mushrik Arabs, the Jews and the Christians, who were duly warned of the consequences of their mischievous and inimical behaviour. 13 - 37

In this discourse, the Muslims have been told clearly and explicitly that they will inherit the rewards promised by Allah only if they take active part in the conflict with kufr, for that is the criterion which distinguishes true Muslims from hypocrites. Therefore true Muslims should take active part in Jihad, without minding dangers, obstacles, difficulties, temptations and the like. 38 - 72

This portion deals with the problems of hypocrites and lays down rules and regulations governing the treatment that should be meted out to them and points out their distinctive marks from true Muslims. 73 - 90

This portion deals with the case of those who remained behind and did not accompany the Holy Prophet for Jihad to Tabuk. For this purpose they have been separated in different categories, that is, the disabled, the sick, the indigent, the hypocrites, the believers who realized their guilt and punished themselves before the return of the Holy Prophet from Tabuk and those who confessed their error. Their cases have been dealt with in accordance with the nature and extent of their offence. 91 - 110

In order to make their noble qualities look all the more conspicuous and dignified by contrast, the characteristics of the Believers have been mentioned, and they have been reassured that Allah, the Sovereign of the Universe, is their helper and guardian. Accordingly, because of their sincerity, He has forgiven the Three Believers who did not take part in the expedition. 111 - 118

In the concluding portion, general instructions have been given to the Believers for their guidance. 119 - 127

This is the conclusion: "Follow the Messenger who is gentle and compassionate and your greatest well-wisher, and trust in Allah, the Lord of the Universe". 128 - 129
SOURCE

In listening to the recitation most people, even those that do not understand Arabic should be able to detect the differences in rhythm as the topics change.

Here is Surah 9 in Arabic without translation. You may or should be able to detect the tonal difference as the topic changes, you may also notice the brief pause between topics.

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Old 10-08-2014, 01:34 PM
 
Location: quiet place
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The question is : who is going to defend Islam and prophet Mohammad PBUH from Mirza Ghulam and his followers like you promisedpease!
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:04 PM
 
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Woodrow

You are doing the same thing,

The covenant is to pay the jizya or die.

If they refuse to pay the jizya, they die.


How many verses are there about breaking treaties, I know I have posted a few.

Muhammed himself gives himself full power to break them whenever he wants.
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Woodrow

You are doing the same thing,

The covenant is to pay the jizya or die.

If they refuse to pay the jizya, they die.


How many verses are there about breaking treaties, I know I have posted a few.

Muhammed himself gives himself full power to break them whenever he wants.
Jizya is to be paid because non-Muslims are not permitted to pay Zakat. Although the Zakat applies to all Muslims and Jizyah only to able bodied males of military age.

A non-Muslim Family over all paid considerably less taxes than a Muslim Family used to.

but it is a moot point no Islamic nation has collected Jizyah in over 100 years. Everybody pays the same Tax now. Which actually ends up as double taxation for Muslims as the Tax does not count as Zakat and every Muslim has to pay Zakat, although it may be to any needy person or organization of choice.

Where do you get Muhammad(saws) gave himself the power to break treaties when ever he wanted to?
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:41 PM
 
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Jizya and Zakat are two completely different purposes and tax levels.

9;29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


There are lots of these

problem because they will be forgiven if they fast for three days.
Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
2.225

Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
Qur'an 5:89

Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.





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Old 10-08-2014, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
......SNIP........


There are lots of these

problem because they will be forgiven if they fast for three days.
Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
2.225

Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
Qur'an 5:89

Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

Those are not giving Muhammad(saws) the freedom to end any treaties because he wants to.

Basically we are not to take oath's in Allaah(swt)'s name as we probably can not fulfill them.

That is what is being addressed there.

Read the parts you are ignoring

Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
2.225

People will swear to things it is impossible for them to complete. It is a foolish thing for them to do, but Allaah(swt) in his mercy will judge based upon what the person's inten and reason was

The next one is slosely related to the first

Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
Qur'an 5:89

The expiation is for making a futile oath you can not keep. Read further you are still accountable for keeping the oath.

Your third one is from Surah 66. For this it is important to know the full surah and the reasons for it.

The whole Surah without the line numbers. It is a short one paragraph regarding a promise Muhammad(saws) made to his wives

Quote:
At-Tahrem (The Banning)

O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his consorts, and she then divulged it (to another), and Allah made it known to him, he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof, she said, "Who told thee this? "He said, "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)." If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up.It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you,- who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who travel (for Faith) and fast,- previously married or virgins. O ye who believe! save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who flinch not (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded.(They will say), "O ye Unbelievers! Make no excuses this Day! Ye are being but requited for all that ye did!" O ye who believe! Turn to Allah with sincere repentance: In the hope that your Lord will remove from you your ills and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow,- the Day that Allah will not permit to be humiliated the Prophet and those who believe with him. Their Light will run forward before them and by their right hands, while they say, "Our Lord! Perfect our Light for us, and grant us Forgiveness: for Thou hast power over all things." O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed). Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!" And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).


The history behind the Surah. Muhammad had forbidden something that Allaah(swt) had permitted. Muhammad(saws) was corrected fro doing this.

Quote:
Thirdly, and this automatically follows from the above mentioned point, that when the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) was checked on a minor thing, which was not only corrected but also recorded, it gives us complete satisfaction that whatever actions and commands and instructions we now find in the pure life of the Holy Prophet concerning which there is nothing on record in the nature of criticism or correction from Allah, they are wholly based on truth, are in complete conformity with Divine Will and we can draw guidance from them with full confidence and peace of mind.

The fourth thing that we learn from this discourse is that about the Holy Messenger himself, whose reverence and respect Allah Himself has enjoined as a necessary part of the Faith of His servants, it has been stated in this Surah that once during his sacred life he made a thing declared lawful by Allah unlawful for himself only to please his wives;
SOURCE
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Old 10-09-2014, 05:49 AM
 
226 posts, read 124,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Holy Roman Empire carried Christianity into all of Europe, The UK and even got all the way to Turkey,Jerusalem and Arabia. But when the Ottoman Empire began pushing back it was called Muslim Aggression and invasion.

What the Roman Empire did is irrelevant.

Islam has a traditional doctrine of aggressive warfare against the unbelivers. You can't justify that by anything the Roman Empire did!
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Old 10-09-2014, 06:02 AM
 
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Woodrow,

Same thing.
As I said, there are lots of these, and you cannot use the same excuse for them all.

They authorize breaking a treaty if you apprehend treachery, or if the person is a non believer.

I will have to look them up,

And still, before we get into breaking these treaties.
Lets get into how they existed anyway, why. what was the reason.
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Old 10-09-2014, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Woodrow,

Same thing.
As I said, there are lots of these, and you cannot use the same excuse for them all.

They authorize breaking a treaty if you apprehend treachery, or if the person is a non believer.

I will have to look them up,

And still, before we get into breaking these treaties.
Lets get into how they existed anyway, why. what was the reason.
As best as I can determine the only treaty dissolved was the treaty between the Mushrikun of Mecca.

That treaty like virtually all of the treaties were related to co-existence or trade agreements.

The treaty with Medina is quite typical and can be read HERE
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Old 10-09-2014, 11:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As best as I can determine the only treaty dissolved was the treaty between the Mushrikun of Mecca.

That treaty like virtually all of the treaties were related to co-existence or trade agreements.

The treaty with Medina is quite typical and can be read HERE

What you just gave is a perfect example of what I have said all along.

You gave me something with no references, written at least, hundreds of years after the event, fabricating a story.

It even says it is from muhammed.

There is nothing at all from Muhammed, and nobody even knew anything about him, as a single person until 125 years afterwords.
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