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Old 10-16-2014, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Yes, it's all a "Western conspiracy"!

I recently came across this quran commentary, which funnily enough, got the "mistaken" idea that Islam is violent...


Quote:

[9:29] Those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day26 - even though they were given the scriptures, and who do not hold as unlawful27 that which Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, and who do not follow the true religion - fight against them until they pay tribute out of their hand and are utterly subdued.28

26. Though the people of the Book professed to believe in Allah and the Hereafter, in fact they believed in neither. For only that person really believes in Allah who acknowledges Him as the only one God and the only one Lord, and does not associate with Him any other, whatsoever, in His Being, in His characteristics, in His rights and in His powers and authority. But according to this definition of shirk both the Christians and the Jews were guilty of shirk as has been made plain in the verses that follow: therefore their profession of belief in Allah was meaningless. Likewise they did not really believe in the Hereafter, in spite of the fact that they believed in resurrection. For it is not enough: one must also believe that on that Day absolute justice will be done on the basis of one’s belief and actions. One should also believe that no ransom and no expiation and no spiritual relationships with any saint shall be of any avail on that Day. It is absolutely meaningless to believe in the Hereafter without this. And the Jews and the Christians had polluted their faiths because they believed that such things would protect them against justice on that day.

27. The second reason why Jihad should be waged against them is that they did not adopt the law sent down by Allah through His Messenger.

28. This is the aim of Jihad with the Jews and the Christians and it is not to force them to become Muslims and adopt the Islamic way of life. They should be forced to pay jizyah in order to put an end to their independence and supremacy so that they should not remain rulers and sovereigns in the land. These powers should be wrested from them by the followers of the true faith, who should assume the sovereignty and lead others towards the right way, while they should become their subjects and pay jizyah. Jizyah is paid by those non-Muslims who live as zimmis (proteges) in an Islamic state, in exchange for the security and protection granted to them by it. This is also symbolical of the fact that they themselves agree to live in it as its subjects. This is the significance of “they pay the tribute out of (their) hand,” that is, “with full consent so that they willingly become the subjects of the believers, who perform the duty of the vicegerents of Allah on the earth.”

At first this command applied only to the Jews and the Christians. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself extended it to the Zoroastrians also. After his death, his companions unanimously applied this rule to all the non Muslim nations outside Arabia.

This is jizyah of which the Muslims have been feeling apologetic during the last two centuries of their degeneration and there are still some people who continue to apologize for it. But the way of Allah is straight and clear and does not stand in need of any apology to the rebels against Allah. Instead of offering apologies on behalf of Islam for the measure that guarantees security of life, property and faith to those who choose to live under its protection, the Muslims should feel proud of such a humane law as that of jizyah. For it is obvious that the maximum freedom that can be allowed to those who do not adopt the Way of Allah but choose to tread the ways of error is that they should be tolerated to lead the life they like. That is why the Islamic state offers them protection, if they agree to live as its zimmis by paying jizyah, but it cannot allow that they should remain supreme rulers in any place and establish wrong ways and impose them on others. As this state of things inevitably produces chaos and disorder, it is the duty of the true Muslims to exert their utmost to bring to an end their wicked rule and bring them under a righteous order.

As regards the question, “What do the non-Muslims get in return for jizyah”, it may suffice to say that it is the price of the freedom which the Islamic state allows them in following their erroneous ways, while living in the jurisdiction of Islam and enjoying its protection. The money thus collected is spent in maintaining the righteous administration that gives them the freedom and protects their rights. This also serves as a yearly reminder to them that they have been deprived of the honor of paying Zakat in the Way of Allah, and forced to pay jizyah instead as a price of following the ways of error.

Surah At-Tauba 9:1-129 - Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran




My point being, is that it isn't just "Westerners" at all. It's Muslims themselves that say that the Islamic religion is violent.
Perhaps it would help if you read the First 2 paragraphs of that Tafsir

From your link:

Quote:
[9:1] This is a declaration of disavowal1 by Allah and His Messenger to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity and with whom you have made treaties:2

1. As has already been stated in the preface to this Surah, this discourse (Ayats 1-37) was revealed in A.H.9, when Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) had left for Makkah as leader of the pilgrims to the Kaabah. Therefore the companions said to the Prophet (peace be upon him), “Send it to Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), so that he may proclaim it on the occasion of Hajj.” He replied, “The importance and nature of the declaration demands that this should be proclaimed on my behalf by someone from my own family.” Accordingly, he entrusted this duty to Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) and instructed him to proclaim it openly before the pilgrims, and also make these four announcements: (1) No one who rejects Islam shall enter Paradise. (2) No mushrik should perform Hajj after this. (3) It is forbidden to move round the Kaabah in a naked state. (4) The terms of the treaties which are still in force (i.e. with those who have not broken their treaties with the Messenger of Allah up to that time) would be faithfully observed till the expiry of the term of the treaties.

In this connection, it will be worthwhile to know that the first Hajj of the Islamic period after the conquest of Makkah was performed in A.H. 8 according to the old customs. Then in A.H. 9 the second Hajj was performed by the Muslims in the Islamic way, and by the mushriks in their own way. But the third Hajj, known as "Hajja-tul- Widaa", was performed in A.H. 10 in the purely Islamic way under the guidance of the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself. He did not perform Hajj during the two previous years because up to that time the mushriks had not been forbidden from it, and so there were still some traces of shirk associated with it.

2. This declaration of the abrogation of the treaties with the mushriks was made in accordance with the law enjoined in Surah Al-Anfaal: 58 regarding the treacherous people, for it is treachery from the Islamic point of view to wage war against any people with whom a treaty of peace had been made, without openly declaring that the treaty had been terminated. That is why a proclamation of the abrogation of the treaties was necessitated against those clans who were always hatching plots against Islam in spite of the treaties of peace they had made. They would break the treaties and turn hostile on the first opportunity for treachery, and the same was true of all the mushrik clans with the exception of Bani Kananah, Bani Damrah and one or two other clans.
The Surah is about a specific instance.
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Old 10-16-2014, 11:31 AM
 
26 posts, read 17,884 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Yes, it's all a "Western conspiracy"!

I recently came across this quran commentary, which funnily enough, got the "mistaken" idea that Islam is violent...


Quote:

[9:29] Those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day26 - even though they were given the scriptures, and who do not hold as unlawful27 that which Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, and who do not follow the true religion - fight against them until they pay tribute out of their hand and are utterly subdued.28

26. Though the people of the Book professed to believe in Allah and the Hereafter, in fact they believed in neither. For only that person really believes in Allah who acknowledges Him as the only one God and the only one Lord, and does not associate with Him any other, whatsoever, in His Being, in His characteristics, in His rights and in His powers and authority. But according to this definition of shirk both the Christians and the Jews were guilty of shirk as has been made plain in the verses that follow: therefore their profession of belief in Allah was meaningless. Likewise they did not really believe in the Hereafter, in spite of the fact that they believed in resurrection. For it is not enough: one must also believe that on that Day absolute justice will be done on the basis of one’s belief and actions. One should also believe that no ransom and no expiation and no spiritual relationships with any saint shall be of any avail on that Day. It is absolutely meaningless to believe in the Hereafter without this. And the Jews and the Christians had polluted their faiths because they believed that such things would protect them against justice on that day.

27. The second reason why Jihad should be waged against them is that they did not adopt the law sent down by Allah through His Messenger.

28. This is the aim of Jihad with the Jews and the Christians and it is not to force them to become Muslims and adopt the Islamic way of life. They should be forced to pay jizyah in order to put an end to their independence and supremacy so that they should not remain rulers and sovereigns in the land. These powers should be wrested from them by the followers of the true faith, who should assume the sovereignty and lead others towards the right way, while they should become their subjects and pay jizyah. Jizyah is paid by those non-Muslims who live as zimmis (proteges) in an Islamic state, in exchange for the security and protection granted to them by it. This is also symbolical of the fact that they themselves agree to live in it as its subjects. This is the significance of “they pay the tribute out of (their) hand,” that is, “with full consent so that they willingly become the subjects of the believers, who perform the duty of the vicegerents of Allah on the earth.”

At first this command applied only to the Jews and the Christians. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself extended it to the Zoroastrians also. After his death, his companions unanimously applied this rule to all the non Muslim nations outside Arabia.

This is jizyah of which the Muslims have been feeling apologetic during the last two centuries of their degeneration and there are still some people who continue to apologize for it. But the way of Allah is straight and clear and does not stand in need of any apology to the rebels against Allah. Instead of offering apologies on behalf of Islam for the measure that guarantees security of life, property and faith to those who choose to live under its protection, the Muslims should feel proud of such a humane law as that of jizyah. For it is obvious that the maximum freedom that can be allowed to those who do not adopt the Way of Allah but choose to tread the ways of error is that they should be tolerated to lead the life they like. That is why the Islamic state offers them protection, if they agree to live as its zimmis by paying jizyah, but it cannot allow that they should remain supreme rulers in any place and establish wrong ways and impose them on others. As this state of things inevitably produces chaos and disorder, it is the duty of the true Muslims to exert their utmost to bring to an end their wicked rule and bring them under a righteous order.

As regards the question, “What do the non-Muslims get in return for jizyah”, it may suffice to say that it is the price of the freedom which the Islamic state allows them in following their erroneous ways, while living in the jurisdiction of Islam and enjoying its protection. The money thus collected is spent in maintaining the righteous administration that gives them the freedom and protects their rights. This also serves as a yearly reminder to them that they have been deprived of the honor of paying Zakat in the Way of Allah, and forced to pay jizyah instead as a price of following the ways of error.

Surah At-Tauba 9:1-129 - Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran




My point being, is that it isn't just "Westerners" at all. It's Muslims themselves that say that the Islamic religion is violent.
What Woodrow said. Further, for your own benefit:

Internet History Sourcebooks Project

Scroll down to Causes of the Islamic Conquests. It is not at all clear-cut as you think it is.

Also, it has nothing to do with a conspiracies; I'm only referring to how the Western world has looked at the Islamic world for centuries.
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Old 10-16-2014, 02:17 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,084,025 times
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The quietest time in all of islams history was the last 200 years, being stopped by Jefferson, and run out of Europe.

They retreated to the mid east, only because they could not keep up with western tech.


They are let out now, only because of oil money.
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Old 10-16-2014, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
The quietest time in all of islams history was the last 200 years, being stopped by Jefferson, and run out of Europe.

They retreated to the mid east, only because they could not keep up with western tech.


They are let out now, only because of oil money.
Only 25%, at most, of the world's Muslims live in the Mideast. Nearly all spreading of Islam has been eastward.



SOURCE
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:14 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,479 times
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I have a question......If Jima49 "version" of Islam is so evil...why is he so hell bent on preaching to us whose understanding of Islam is that of Compassion and Mercy, to believe his version and discard ours?
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:21 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,667 posts, read 74,646,551 times
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i love it.
well my friend you have explained away most of the history of islam and denied chapter 9 section 2 of the quran advocating the killing of jews and christians
the marvelous part about the mideast is the war. the one we have fought for the last 13 years, we never find any insurgents, they always just left, there are no insurgents in the mideast. there are no jihadists in the mideast. only farmers and loyal followers of islam the religion of love and peace.
what would you like to choose for your next explanation?
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:35 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,084,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
I have a question......If Jima49 "version" of Islam is so evil...why is he so hell bent on preaching to us whose understanding of Islam is that of Compassion and Mercy, to believe his version and discard ours?

Because we are using two different versions, and I am not sure what yours is.

Mine I get from the Qur'an and Sunnah..

I have found that most muslims have never even read the most important books of Islam, nor have I met or conversed with many, who even know how to read the Qur'an correctly to understand what can be understood.

Few understand the timeframe of events and even less, how it was created.
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Old 10-16-2014, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
I have a question......If Jima49 "version" of Islam is so evil...why is he so hell bent on preaching to us whose understanding of Islam is that of Compassion and Mercy, to believe his version and discard ours?
I have no idea. But, he seems to be convinced that the majority of Muslims are in error and do not understand the Qur'an or Sunnah.
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
i love it.
well my friend you have explained away most of the history of islam and denied chapter 9 section 2 of the quran advocating the killing of jews and christians
the marvelous part about the mideast is the war. the one we have fought for the last 13 years, we never find any insurgents, they always just left, there are no insurgents in the mideast. there are no jihadists in the mideast. only farmers and loyal followers of islam the religion of love and peace.
what would you like to choose for your next explanation?
What makes the insurgents so dangerous to both Muslims and Non-Muslims is they are not identifiable until after they act and even then they are not identifiable unless we actually witnessed them.

We had something very similar in Vietnam. There was no way to recognize the Cong from the Peaceful Vietnamese. Sadly it led us to make our combat strategy to be "Kill'em all, Let God do the sorting" I was ordered to destroy entire villages based upon reports it was a Cong stronghold or Cong supporters.

Do we really want to do that in the Mideast? Although we already have in Iraq and Afghanistan.



I am not certain what you mean by Chapter 9 Section 2. that is not how the Qur'an is divided.

Perhaps you are referring to Surah 9 ayyat 2 which is

2. So travel freely for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

Or possibly Surat 2 Ayyat 9 which is:

9. They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!

In any event to understand a Surah one needs to read the entire Surah and have an understanding of who it was directed at and why.

Surat (Plural of Surah) 2, 5 and 9 are the ones most quoted by non-Muslims as "Proof" Islam teaches us to kill all non-Muslims.

The purpose for Surah 2
Theme: Guidance

This Surah is an invitation to the Divine Guidance and all the stories, incidents etc., revolve round this central theme. As this Surah has particularly been addressed to the Jews, many historical events have been cited from their own traditions to admonish and advise them that their own good lies in accepting the Guidance revealed to the Holy Prophet. They should, therefore, be the first to accept it because it was basically]y the same that was revealed to Prophet Moses (Allah's peace be upon him).

The Purpose for Surah 5

Topics

It deals with the following three main topics:

Commandments and instructions about the religious, cultural and political life of the Muslims.

In this connection, a code of ceremonial rules concerning the journey for Haj has been prescribed; the observance of strict respect for the emblems of Allah has been enjoined; and any kind of obstruction or interference with the pilgrims to the Kaabah has been prohibited. Definite rules and regulations have been laid down for what is lawful and unlawful in the matter of food, and self-imposed foolish restrictions of the pre-Islamic age have been abolished. Permission has been given to. take food with the people of the Book and to marry their women. Rules and regulations for the performance of Wudu (ablutions) and bath and purification and tayammum (ablutions with dust) have been prescribed. Punishment for rebellion, disturbance of peace and theft have been specified. Drinking and gambling have absolutely been made unlawful. Expiation for the breaking of oath has been laid down and a few more things have been added to the law of evidence.
Admonition to the Muslims.

Now that the Muslims had become a ruling body, it was feared that power might corrupt them. At this period of great trial, Allah had admonished them over and over again to stick to justice and to guard against the wrong behavior of their predecessors, the people of the Book. They have been enjoined to remain steadfast to the Covenant of obedience to Allah and His Messenger, and to observe strictly their commands and prohibitions in order to save them- selves from the evil consequences which. befell the Jews and the Christians who had violated them. They have been instructed to observe the dictates of the Holy Quran in the conduct of all their affairs and warned against the attitude of hypocrisy.
Admonition to the Jews and the Christians.

As the power of the Jews had been totally weakened and almost all their habitations in north Arabia had come under the rule of the Muslims, they have been warned again about their wrong attitude and invited to follow the Right Way. At the same time a detailed invitation has also been extended to the Christians. The errors of their creeds have been clearly pointed out and they have been admonished to accept the guidance of the Holy Prophet. . Incidentally, it may be noted that no direct invitation has been made to the Majusis and idolaters living in the adjoining countries, because there was no need for a separate address for them as their condition. had already been covered by the addresses to the mushrik Arabs.

The purpose for Surah 9
Subject: Problems of Peace and War

In continuation of Surah AL-ANFAL, this Surah also deals with the problems of peace and war and bases the theme on the Tabuk Expedition.

The source for my comments is from the tafsir of Maududi HERE
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Old 10-17-2014, 04:45 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Perhaps it would help if you read the First 2 paragraphs of that Tafsir

From your link:



The Surah is about a specific instance.

The commentary clearly disagrees with you. Take it up with them. The commentary has this as a general principle:


"At first this command applied only to the Jews and the Christians. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself extended it to the Zoroastrians also. After his death, his companions unanimously applied this rule to all the non Muslim nations outside Arabia.

This is jizyah of which the Muslims have been feeling apologetic during the last two centuries of their degeneration and there are still some people who continue to apologize for it. But the way of Allah is straight and clear and does not stand in need of any apology to the rebels against Allah. Instead of offering apologies on behalf of Islam for the measure that guarantees security of life, property and faith to those who choose to live under its protection, the Muslims should feel proud of such a humane law as that of jizyah. For it is obvious that the maximum freedom that can be allowed to those who do not adopt the Way of Allah but choose to tread the ways of error is that they should be tolerated to lead the life they like. That is why the Islamic state offers them protection, if they agree to live as its zimmis by paying jizyah, but it cannot allow that they should remain supreme rulers in any place and establish wrong ways and impose them on others. As this state of things inevitably produces chaos and disorder, it is the duty of the true Muslims to exert their utmost to bring to an end their wicked rule and bring them under a righteous order."
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