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Old 10-17-2014, 04:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lippa View Post
What Woodrow said.
The commentary is very clear that it's a general principle.
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Old 10-17-2014, 04:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
I have a question......If Jima49 "version" of Islam is so evil...why is he so hell bent on preaching to us whose understanding of Islam is that of Compassion and Mercy, to believe his version and discard ours?
My own thoughts on this:

Most of the "moderates" around just aren't capable of properly reforming the religion. You need to admit that there is something deeply wrong with Islam, before it can be genuinely reformed.

Supposed "moderates" saying that Islam is peaceful and tolerant doesn't really get us anywhere.
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
My own thoughts on this:

Most of the "moderates" around just aren't capable of properly reforming the religion. You need to admit that there is something deeply wrong with Islam, before it can be genuinely reformed.

Supposed "moderates" saying that Islam is peaceful and tolerant doesn't really get us anywhere.
Except at least 80% of the World's Muslims seem to have the "Moderate" view. Virtually every Terrorist organization has come from one region.

Yes, Muslims worldwide do denounce and condemn them.
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Except at least 80% of the World's Muslims seem to have the "Moderate" view. Virtually every Terrorist organization has come from one region.

Yes, Muslims worldwide do denounce and condemn them.

Your figures are unsubstantiated.

Polls reveal a huge percentage of the so called moderates, wanting Islamic law, from behind the scenes.

Muslims do not denounce terror unless it is directed at them.

They refuse to address it within the religion.

And 70% of world terror is Sunni muslim, and comes from all over.
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
My own thoughts on this:

Most of the "moderates" around just aren't capable of properly reforming the religion. You need to admit that there is something deeply wrong with Islam, before it can be genuinely reformed.

Supposed "moderates" saying that Islam is peaceful and tolerant doesn't really get us anywhere.
This is where a huge problem lies.

We have a written doctrine, anyone can read it, and when a muslim says it means something other than what they wrote, all it does is decrease the credibility of the person saying it.
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Old 10-17-2014, 11:31 AM
 
Location: southern california
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What makes the insurgents so dangerous to both Muslims and Non-Muslims is they are not identifiable until after they act and even then they are not identifiable unless we actually witnessed them.

We had something very similar in Vietnam. There was no way to recognize the Cong from the Peaceful Vietnamese. Sadly it led us to make our combat strategy to be "Kill'em all, Let God do the sorting" I was ordered to destroy entire villages based upon reports it was a Cong stronghold or Cong supporters.

Do we really want to do that in the Mideast? Although we already have in Iraq and Afghanistan.



I am not certain what you mean by Chapter 9 Section 2. that is not how the Qur'an is divided.

Perhaps you are referring to Surah 9 ayyat 2 which is

2. So travel freely for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

Or possibly Surat 2 Ayyat 9 which is:

9. They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!

In any event to understand a Surah one needs to read the entire Surah and have an understanding of who it was directed at and why.

Surat (Plural of Surah) 2, 5 and 9 are the ones most quoted by non-Muslims as "Proof" Islam teaches us to kill all non-Muslims.

The purpose for Surah 2
Theme: Guidance

This Surah is an invitation to the Divine Guidance and all the stories, incidents etc., revolve round this central theme. As this Surah has particularly been addressed to the Jews, many historical events have been cited from their own traditions to admonish and advise them that their own good lies in accepting the Guidance revealed to the Holy Prophet. They should, therefore, be the first to accept it because it was basically]y the same that was revealed to Prophet Moses (Allah's peace be upon him).

The Purpose for Surah 5

Topics

It deals with the following three main topics:

Commandments and instructions about the religious, cultural and political life of the Muslims.

In this connection, a code of ceremonial rules concerning the journey for Haj has been prescribed; the observance of strict respect for the emblems of Allah has been enjoined; and any kind of obstruction or interference with the pilgrims to the Kaabah has been prohibited. Definite rules and regulations have been laid down for what is lawful and unlawful in the matter of food, and self-imposed foolish restrictions of the pre-Islamic age have been abolished. Permission has been given to. take food with the people of the Book and to marry their women. Rules and regulations for the performance of Wudu (ablutions) and bath and purification and tayammum (ablutions with dust) have been prescribed. Punishment for rebellion, disturbance of peace and theft have been specified. Drinking and gambling have absolutely been made unlawful. Expiation for the breaking of oath has been laid down and a few more things have been added to the law of evidence.
Admonition to the Muslims.

Now that the Muslims had become a ruling body, it was feared that power might corrupt them. At this period of great trial, Allah had admonished them over and over again to stick to justice and to guard against the wrong behavior of their predecessors, the people of the Book. They have been enjoined to remain steadfast to the Covenant of obedience to Allah and His Messenger, and to observe strictly their commands and prohibitions in order to save them- selves from the evil consequences which. befell the Jews and the Christians who had violated them. They have been instructed to observe the dictates of the Holy Quran in the conduct of all their affairs and warned against the attitude of hypocrisy.
Admonition to the Jews and the Christians.

As the power of the Jews had been totally weakened and almost all their habitations in north Arabia had come under the rule of the Muslims, they have been warned again about their wrong attitude and invited to follow the Right Way. At the same time a detailed invitation has also been extended to the Christians. The errors of their creeds have been clearly pointed out and they have been admonished to accept the guidance of the Holy Prophet. . Incidentally, it may be noted that no direct invitation has been made to the Majusis and idolaters living in the adjoining countries, because there was no need for a separate address for them as their condition. had already been covered by the addresses to the mushrik Arabs.

The purpose for Surah 9
Subject: Problems of Peace and War

In continuation of Surah AL-ANFAL, this Surah also deals with the problems of peace and war and bases the theme on the Tabuk Expedition.

The source for my comments is from the tafsir of Maududi HERE

Repentance al-taw bah stage 2 part10 section2 signs
"9:5 when the months of pilgrim sanctity were drawn away, kill the ones who are polytheists wherever you found them and besiege them and sit in every place of ambush."

Did I miss something????
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Old 10-17-2014, 11:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
Repentance al-taw bah stage 2 part10 section2 signs
"9:5 when the months of pilgrim sanctity were drawn away, kill the ones who are polytheists wherever you found them and besiege them and sit in every place of ambush."

Did I miss something????

I also want to point out, it was Muhammed himself who was the first to violate the sacred months, leaving an opening for others in the future, so this verse is misleading.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
The commentary is very clear that it's a general principle.



The first paragraph of the Tafsir is quite clear what was being spoken of was a specific treaty. the
Surah is not General commands to kill non Muslims.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 10-17-2014 at 08:28 PM..
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:21 PM
 
Location: southern california
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The first paragraph of the Tafsie is quite clear what was being spoken of was a specific treaty. the
Surah is not General commands to kill non Muslims.
i have heard that argument but the careful development of chapter 5 thru 8 clearly indicates malevolant intent toward jews and christians. chapter 1 thru 4 exault christ and moses, a straw dog approach to the tear down that occurs in chapters 5 thru 8.
many of the enormous inconsistencies with the assertion that islam is the religion of love and peace are just as easily dismissed as you have done here.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
Repentance al-taw bah stage 2 part10 section2 signs
"9:5 when the months of pilgrim sanctity were drawn away, kill the ones who are polytheists wherever you found them and besiege them and sit in every place of ambush."

Did I miss something????
For starter to let a Muslim know which ayyar you are speaking of 9:5 is the way we will know. The qur'an is not divided into Stage, Part, Section that sounds like something a Translator did.

To under stand 9:5 you need to read 9:1-9:12 as a single thought and also know the Who, what and whys it was revealed.

Syed Maudi understands it as:

Quote:
Discourses and Periods of Revelation
This Surah comprises three discourses:-
The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah A. H. 9 or thereabout. As the importance of the subject of the discourse required its declaration on the occasion of Haj the Holy Prophet despatched Hadrat Ali to follow Hadrat Abu Bakr, who had already left for Makkah as leader of the Pilgrims to the Ka'abah. He instructed Hadrat Ali to deliver the discourse before the representatives of the different clans of Arabia so as to inform them of the new policy towards the mushriks.

Subject: Problems of Peace and War
In continuation of Surah AL-ANFAL, this Surah also deals with the problems of peace and war and bases the theme on the Tabuk Expedition.
Topics and their Interconnection
This portion deals with the sanctity of treaties and lays down principles, rules and regulations which must be kept in view before breaking them, in case the other party does not observe them sincerely. 1 - 12
SOURCE

This is not a set of commandments ordering Muslims to kill non-Muslims because they are not Muslims.
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