U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-30-2014, 09:50 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,506 times
Reputation: 28

Advertisements

"For example I have heard it said that he was illiterate? Is therefore your presence on this forum not against your professed position above? Illiterate or not he certainly did not use computers."

I think Nozz makes an interesting point----if we blindly follow traditions, we are doing exactly what the Quran accused the pre-Islamic Arabs of doing---blindly following the traditions of their ancestors.....In Islam, we have to remember, it is not the action alone that is good/bad, but the intention behind the action that colors an action good or bad or some degree in-between.

In pre-Islamic times, music, song, dance was associated with drunken entertainments and prostitution. Under such circumstances, the early Muslims tried to strive to live a more dignified and civilized (well-mannered/"Adab") life. Adab is an important concept in Islam where one respects others and respects oneself.

Here in the East, the "entertainment industry" was often associated with criminal elements who used it for money laundering or other such purposes....So, if one had any self-respect or dignity one would stay away from this industry.....but this is no longer the case nowadays...so perhaps some of us can re-evaluate our positions.....

Islam also encourages the pursuit of knowledge---one might even say the pursuit of knowledge is a duty! Music was classified as a mathematical science and Muslim scholars have written treatises and invented musical instruments.

"Arab mathematician and philosopher al-Farabi (870-950 CE) was known as a musician and scientist of music theory who wrote The Great Book of Music. Al-Farabi’s masterwork became influential among mathematicians and musicians for many centuries afterwards, including in Al-Andalus. Al-Farabi discussed musical scales and intervals and the concept of pitch and tuning instruments, among other innovations still being studied today.
Al-Farabi’s Great Book of Music was translated in Spain by Ibn Aqnin (1160-1226 CE), first into Hebrew, and then into Latin. Its titles in Latin, De Scientiis and De Ortu Scientiarum, show that music theory was considered a scientific discipline. Classical and Islamic ideas of music theory were very influential in the development of European music theory, though the transfer of knowledge from Arabic sources has not been sufficiently recognized."
From: Music

Music is important for some Sufi sects who use it heighten their spirituality/meditation. (one might go so far as to say...they use it for the cause of God)

I think Woodrow's position is very sensible....since we cannot know the intentions of another person, we should not judge their actions for it is between them and God...we can only judge our own actions and pray that our choices please God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-30-2014, 10:04 PM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,634 times
Reputation: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Unfortunatly if he was in many Islamic countries, he would lose his head for doing so.

Muhammed himself condemned music, and many muslims take it upon themselves to enforce God's will.
exagration
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2014, 10:16 PM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,634 times
Reputation: 99
Music in general goes under the minor sins in our understanding of the Islamic laws. I or we in general still look to those who use music instruments or listen to it as a good people. I am not justifying or encouraging to do so for the musicians and song basicly evoke fancy feelings . I don't think any song will deliver a good message. they are talking about love, relationships and where they could meet

my own opinion
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2014, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
"For example I have heard it said that he was illiterate? Is therefore your presence on this forum not against your professed position above? Illiterate or not he certainly did not use computers."

I think Nozz makes an interesting point----if we blindly follow traditions, we are doing exactly what the Quran accused the pre-Islamic Arabs of doing---blindly following the traditions of their ancestors.....In Islam, we have to remember, it is not the action alone that is good/bad, but the intention behind the action that colors an action good or bad or some degree in-between.

In pre-Islamic times, music, song, dance was associated with drunken entertainments and prostitution. Under such circumstances, the early Muslims tried to strive to live a more dignified and civilized (well-mannered/"Adab") life. Adab is an important concept in Islam where one respects others and respects oneself.

Here in the East, the "entertainment industry" was often associated with criminal elements who used it for money laundering or other such purposes....So, if one had any self-respect or dignity one would stay away from this industry.....but this is no longer the case nowadays...so perhaps some of us can re-evaluate our positions.....

Islam also encourages the pursuit of knowledge---one might even say the pursuit of knowledge is a duty! Music was classified as a mathematical science and Muslim scholars have written treatises and invented musical instruments.

"Arab mathematician and philosopher al-Farabi (870-950 CE) was known as a musician and scientist of music theory who wrote The Great Book of Music. Al-Farabi’s masterwork became influential among mathematicians and musicians for many centuries afterwards, including in Al-Andalus. Al-Farabi discussed musical scales and intervals and the concept of pitch and tuning instruments, among other innovations still being studied today.
Al-Farabi’s Great Book of Music was translated in Spain by Ibn Aqnin (1160-1226 CE), first into Hebrew, and then into Latin. Its titles in Latin, De Scientiis and De Ortu Scientiarum, show that music theory was considered a scientific discipline. Classical and Islamic ideas of music theory were very influential in the development of European music theory, though the transfer of knowledge from Arabic sources has not been sufficiently recognized."
From: Music

Music is important for some Sufi sects who use it heighten their spirituality/meditation. (one might go so far as to say...they use it for the cause of God)

I think Woodrow's position is very sensible....since we cannot know the intentions of another person, we should not judge their actions for it is between them and God...we can only judge our own actions and pray that our choices please God.
This can all lead into a very long discussion of Fiqh, Sunnah and makruf.

While all of Sunnah is desired not all Sunnah is Fiqh. They are areas in which it is simply a desire to try to live as Muhammad(saws) did and to also avoid doing what he did not do. But a lot of that is probably Makruf (To avoid doing, but not a sin if we do them) We will never be able to live as Muhammad(saws) did. Sunnah to a large extent is a desire to do as closely as we can.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2014, 03:03 AM
 
116 posts, read 67,506 times
Reputation: 28
Perhaps this bit of wisdom from Buddhism explains why a Muslim (or anyone else) may want to refrain from what is harmful and encourage what is beneficial in oneself and in others....

"Do not think lightly of evil. If you think "What harm in this? Surely no harm will come to me!", consider how a water jar is filled by falling drops of water. The fool becomes filled with depravity little by little.
Do not think lightly of merit. If you think "what benefit is this to me? Surely no benefit to me!", consider how a water jar is filled by falling drops of water. and so the wise accomplish merit accumulated little by little."
----Dhammapada

Art is neither good/bad in itself but how humans choose to use it can make it good/bad or beautiful/ugly or uplifting to the soul or debasing to the soul. The Quran shows this brilliantly by re-inventing a common artistic medium of pre-Islamic Arabia into something beautiful....
for example.....
the poetry of Abu Nuwas (court poet of the Ummayads) celebrates self-pleasure, self-interest and getting drunk...
(a translation from Muhammed for beginners by Ziauddin Sardar and Zafffar Abbas Malik))
"Ho! a cup and fill it up, and tell me it is wine,
for never will I drink in shade if I can drink in shine.
cursed and poor is every hour that sober I must go,
but rich am I whenever will drunk I stagger to and fro."

Pre-Islamic poetry often had such themes but the Quran changes that by using words in order to celebrate God's creation and to uplift the soul....

Surah 91 The Sun
In the name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful.

"By the Sun and her brightening
by the moon when it follows her
by the day when it dispels her
by the earth and what shaped her
by the soul and what formed her
and revealed her debased
and revealed her faithful
whoever honors her flourishes
whoever defiles her fails...."

Art, Architecture, Music, Song, and all other artistic/cultural endeavors can be used for good, for beauty, for lifting our souls or not----it depends on us.
As consumers we have to choose what is of benefit to our soul and what is harmful to our souls because all our choices count.

Love---This is what the Quran says about romantic love...
"And among His Signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." [Sūrah Rūm: 21]

IMO, when we celebrate God's blessing in a beautiful way, we remember/become inspired, to be grateful and gratefulness is a path to Taqwa.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2014, 08:03 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,771 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
They are areas in which it is simply a desire to try to live as Muhammad(saws) did and to also avoid doing what he did not do. But a lot of that is probably Makruf
A desire to do so is one thing, but any kind of compunction or admonishment that people _should_ be doing it is quite another. As I said, it is a horrific way to try and turn everyone into clones and stifle the diversity that makes humanity what it is and what is good about it.

Whatever else one might claim about the supernatural or metaphysical parts of the history of Muhammad.... he was at the end of the day "Only human". As such there are limits on his time, resources, energies and capabilities. He simply could not engage in every aspect of human life that was available in his time, let alone ours. Every job. Every academic pursuit. Every hobby. Every sport. The number of things he DID do is simply massively dwarfed by the multitude of things he did NOT do in his life. One can only stab at gusses of the ratio. 1:1000? 1:10000. 1:1,000,000? Who knows?

So any religion that admonishes people to err to the lower side of that ratio is an attack on human diversity that, for me, is even more horrific than I normally find most religions to be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2014, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
A desire to do so is one thing, but any kind of compunction or admonishment that people _should_ be doing it is quite another. As I said, it is a horrific way to try and turn everyone into clones and stifle the diversity that makes humanity what it is and what is good about it.

Whatever else one might claim about the supernatural or metaphysical parts of the history of Muhammad.... he was at the end of the day "Only human". As such there are limits on his time, resources, energies and capabilities. He simply could not engage in every aspect of human life that was available in his time, let alone ours. Every job. Every academic pursuit. Every hobby. Every sport. The number of things he DID do is simply massively dwarfed by the multitude of things he did NOT do in his life. One can only stab at gusses of the ratio. 1:1000? 1:10000. 1:1,000,000? Who knows?

So any religion that admonishes people to err to the lower side of that ratio is an attack on human diversity that, for me, is even more horrific than I normally find most religions to be.
I believe you will find most Muslims have a strong desire to try to live as Muhammad(saws) did and we recognize it is not possible. The only things we know he did not do are what he stated he did not do.

There is no admonishment if a person fails to live a full sunnah life, as many parts are not practical or even possible.

Much has to do with intent and desire rather than actually being able to do. Such as for perhaps the past 30 years of my life I have been a bit of a survivalist and do choose to live over the grid as much as possible. The closest I can handle is to live out in the Boondocks and avoid going into any cities. That has nothing to do with my religious beliefs, I'm basically a country boy that loves nature. I enjoy the skunk that has taken up residency in my garage, love seeing deer, and coyotes in the yard and kind of hope one day one of the rare mountain lions will make an appearance, although none have been seen in this county for over 100 years. But I did see some badgers. My only concern is to keep the cute little bunny rabbits from eating the bark off my trees and wrecking my garden.

Like I mentioned earlier the concept of sin differs a bit from the Christian sin. As we do not believe we can hurt Allaah(swt) and our sins do not harm him, they only harm us and the people we share this planet with.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-01-2014, 08:17 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,506 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
A desire to do so is one thing, but any kind of compunction or admonishment that people _should_ be doing it is quite another. As I said, it is a horrific way to try and turn everyone into clones and stifle the diversity that makes humanity what it is and what is good about it.
If protecting human (behavioural) diversity means that there must be no laws governing the do's and don'ts of human behavior, that there should be no social rules of civility or expectations of good conduct...then there is something very wrong about such an attitude. All human societies have laws, rules, and expectations that govern, restrict or encourage particular "ways". (notice the plural)

If we have any understanding of human nature...then it can be seen that peace secured by justice promotes liberty and discord bound by inequality promotes oppression. It may seem counter intuitive---but liberties are protected and promoted by having (just/fair) laws, rules and social expectations.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2014, 12:47 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,771 times
Reputation: 2973
Not sure why you are selectively replying to my posts and skipping others but however..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe you will find most Muslims have a strong desire to try to live as Muhammad(saws) did and we recognize it is not possible.
Yes Christianity has a similar canard in admonishing adherents to aspire to attain the perfection of Christ, but informing them they will never be capable of doing so. It is quite the psychological trick actually, to hold someone captive to an unattainable ideal and then purporting to love them all the more for their failings and failures. It is a form of emotional stolkholm syndrome and quite a powerful religious tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no admonishment if a person fails to live a full sunnah life, as many parts are not practical or even possible.
You claim this but yet there are cloak and dagger veiled threats in how you speak at the same time. All this "We believe it to be wrong, but will not outright call it sin, but you can explain yourself to Allah all the same" is clearly a veiled attempt to.... while not outright admonishing people to follow the path you desire........ install doubts and worry in their minds as to whether they will suffer later if they do not.

But of course none of this addresses the core point of what I have said in two posts now, which is that a religion that compels or even strongly compels a group of people to all become as close clones of a single man as they possibly can....... is quite a horrific attack on human diversity and individuality. And human diversity and individuality is, to my mind, one of the most precious and wonderful things our species has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
If protecting human (behavioural) diversity means that there must be no laws governing the do's and don'ts of human behavior, that there should be no social rules of civility or expectations of good conduct...then there is something very wrong about such an attitude.
Then I am sure we can all rejoice together that nothing I have said on this thread is even REMOTELY close to that "attitude" you describe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2014, 02:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
Music in general goes under the minor sins in our understanding of the Islamic laws. I or we in general still look to those who use music instruments or listen to it as a good people. I am not justifying or encouraging to do so for the musicians and song basicly evoke fancy feelings . I don't think any song will deliver a good message. they are talking about love, relationships and where they could meet

my own opinion
I think that is a problem with music. It is an excellent means of eliciting emotions and an ideal tool to instill a belief or desire. No accident "Ditties and Jingles" are part of the advertising world. Musicalinstruments seem to be a method of enhancing or causing emotional feelings.

Also war dances and chants have long been used to stir people up for battle. Many religions use music as a means to awaken "spiritual feelings" I wonder if they awaken them or cause them?

I think Islam is the only religion that does not use instrument Music in worship. Exception being the Sufi that do use music instruments in worship.

I wonder how many people go to church primarily to listen to the hymns and the organ or piano music?
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top