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Old 10-02-2014, 04:19 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Musicalinstruments seem to be a method of enhancing or causing emotional feelings.
You say that, prefacing it with the word "problem" as if it is somehow a bad thing. EVERYTHING is a method of enhancing or causing emotional feelings. We are emotional creatures. We react emotionally to _everything_ even when you do not realize. Hook yourself up to a Galvanic Skin Response machine sometime and list for me on a piece of paper the number of things you responded unemotionally to throughout the day.

Bring a small pen and small paper, you will not need much of either.

The issue is with HOW we use and apply things, not with those things in and of themselves. Whatever you happen not to like, for personal reasons or because your religion tells you so, you simply have to pretend it is the latter not the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I wonder if they awaken them or cause them
Why only those two options. There are others. Such as to accentuate that which is already there and awake. Enhancement lies in the middle of the continuum between "awaken" and "cause".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I wonder how many people go to church primarily to listen to the hymns and the organ or piano music?
Impossible to say I guess without indepth studies. Richard Dawkins of Atheism fame certainly says that despite his atheism he does enjoy attending Church of England ceremonies purely for the music.
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Not sure why you are selectively replying to my posts and skipping others but however..........
Call it short attention spam or just too difficult for me to handle.

I do get a bit overwhelmed when there are several topics to address on a post and just handle the ones I have an immediate answer for rather than ignoring the post.

My intent is to come back later and address what I have left off, but often it turns out to be procrastination and I never get back to the post. Needless to say I have never developed any debating skills. Guess I been a grouchy old-man most of my life and have never formed a desire to defend my views. I have too much of a, "Take it or leave it" attitude.

I rather enjoy it when others give an opinion that contradicts my opinions. Gives me new ideas to look at. I value all sincere opinions but sadly I sometimes (often) fail to acknowledge them, However, I do read every post in any thread I post in. I actually do look at the views of others but I am very slow at forming opinions about anything.

I also tend to run of track and get too wordy in my replies.

Short version of above:
I do read and appreciate your posts. I apologize for not replying to all of them.
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:39 AM
 
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Fair enough. I have to say I would not operate in that fashion and would simply leave the forum if I were incapable of partaking in the conversations I indicated I was taking part in. I would feel truly a rude person if I indicated to others that I was partaking in a conversation, and then as soon as they invest time and energy and attention into partaking of that conversation with me.... I merely wordlessly blank them. To me that lacks all decorum and respect for the other and I would never do it.

So I guess I can merely say that you have clearly made different choices than I in this regard. Morality and interpersonal ethics do appear in every way to be subjective after all, with no objective morality in evidence.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Fair enough. I have to say I would not operate in that fashion and would simply leave the forum if I were incapable of partaking in the conversations I indicated I was taking part in. I would feel truly a rude person if I indicated to others that I was partaking in a conversation, and then as soon as they invest time and energy and attention into partaking of that conversation with me.... I merely wordlessly blank them. To me that lacks all decorum and respect for the other and I would never do it.
Sorry if I have mislead you. Typically I do not try to get involved in debates. I enjoy conversations and dislike debates. I come to this particular forum as it is intended to be a safe refuge for Muslims to exchange thoughts free from questioning or debate.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
So I guess I can merely say that you have clearly made different choices than I in this regard. Morality and interpersonal ethics do appear in every way to be subjective after all, with no objective morality in evidence.
Morality is very much situational. It is often a question of making choices and doing which does the least damage.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
Music in general goes under the minor sins in our understanding of the Islamic laws. I or we in general still look to those who use music instruments or listen to it as a good people. I am not justifying or encouraging to do so for the musicians and song basicly evoke fancy feelings . I don't think any song will deliver a good message. they are talking about love, relationships and where they could meet

my own opinion
Yes, there is a lot of music that promotes "sex, drugs, and rock and roll", but are you just going to dismiss all the beautiful music written that tells stories of love and hope, or that praises God and His Creation?

It's like anything else--you choose which music you are going to listen to, and your choices say a lot about who you are.

I think music is a gift from God, and it's up to us how we use those gifts, just like anything else.

This ban on enjoying the beauty of music is, to me, one of the most bizarre aspects of Islam, and seems to me to be very much a man-made rule rather than anything that has to do with submission to the will of Allah. And I cannot understand the man whose heart is so dark that he would ban music from his own life.

I have been to the most beautiful Islamic art exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. Such gorgeous, intricate work and colors used in religious objects and bowls and cloth, etc. Music is another form of art that can be used to worship God, as well. It seems to be contradictory that a culture could create such beauty in one form and despise a similar beauty in another.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think that is a problem with music. It is an excellent means of eliciting emotions and an ideal tool to instill a belief or desire. No accident "Ditties and Jingles" are part of the advertising world. Musicalinstruments seem to be a method of enhancing or causing emotional feelings.

Also war dances and chants have long been used to stir people up for battle. Many religions use music as a means to awaken "spiritual feelings" I wonder if they awaken them or cause them?

I think Islam is the only religion that does not use instrument Music in worship. Exception being the Sufi that do use music instruments in worship.

I wonder how many people go to church primarily to listen to the hymns and the organ or piano music?
I was speaking with a woman I work with not long ago who says when she goes to church she goes only just for that exactly. I'm sure there are others.

She must not be an Episcopalian. We have some of the dullest music in Christendom.
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Old 10-04-2014, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I was speaking with a woman I work with not long ago who says when she goes to church she goes only just for that exactly. I'm sure there are others.

She must not be an Episcopalian. We have some of the dullest music in Christendom.
While I speak of Music being forbidden in Islam. It is the use of instruments that is forbidden. Singing is permitted.

However in a Mosque the use of music is rather pointless. The prayers are quite short Except during Ramadan when it is customary to recite one full Juz each day. usually at the Maghreb prayer. A Juz is 1/30th of the Qur'an and takes about an hour to recite.

There are numerous Islamic songs, typically sung outside the Mosque. An Islamic Song is called a Nasheed Plural of Nasheed is Anasheed Although these are not sung during our Salat(Prayer Service) they are popular throughout the day and in Muslim Homes.

There is some leeway regarding Anasheed and music if they are intended for non-Muslims or Children.

Some examples of Anasheed and how they differ





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Old 10-04-2014, 11:01 PM
 
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For Muslims, the connection with God is meant to be direct and personal, with no intermediaries to facilitate as in some other traditions---no priests, no hallucinogenic substances, no music....etc.

However, the Quran is also insistent that human beings engage with life, make choices and be grateful for all the blessings...to this end, the Quran encourages people to eat of the fruit and beasts God has provided, to wear beautiful clothes and enjoy relationships, to travel,...etc... and advises us not be like (Christian) monks who renounce life.

In many parts of the East, it was the Sufi's who brought (mainstream) Islam to the region so how people view music has been diverse. Today in the post 9/11 generation, Muslims have been thrown into the global limelight and have been loudly confronted with the questions "who are you and what is Islam".....when previously most of us were quietly living our lives and minding our own business. Art/Culture is a good way to explore and express identity. There is also a lot of conversation going on about what are the parameters of such an identity---or the "halalification" process. The fact that a very large number of Muslims are young and upwardly mobile also creates its own dynamism and energy.

Here are some links to the diverse tastes of Muslims---it is only a very small slice of the diversity in Islam.
Sami Yusuf (U.K./Azerbaijan origin)

Sami Yusuf - All I Need - YouTube

Yuna (Malaysia)

Yuna - I Wanna Go - YouTube

Islamic force (Germany/Turkish origin)

Islamic Force - Gurbet (First Turkish Old School HipHop) - YouTube

Unknown---song by Allama Iqbal (Subcontinent/British India?)

Child Prayer - Lab pe aati hai dua ban ka Tamana Meri by www.desinagar.com - YouTube


Here is an article about music and Islam
The rise and rise of Islamic music - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
and halalification
Halalywood: The rise of the Islamic entertainment industry

Muslims are not the only ones pursuing "halalification" ---the consumer numbers and disposable income projections are attractive enough that many countries are getting interested in pursuing this market----recently Japan has begun "Halalifying" its tourist industry......
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:54 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I have been to the most beautiful Islamic art exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. Such gorgeous, intricate work and colors used in religious objects and bowls and cloth, etc. Music is another form of art that can be used to worship God, as well. It seems to be contradictory that a culture could create such beauty in one form and despise a similar beauty in another.
Taqwa or God-awareness often seems to be a component of some of the most beautiful art in all cultures of the world but there is also another component in Islamic art......."to ban", is too strong a word, but there are restrictions in Islamic art. Restrictions amplify beauty.

Consider, The most pleasing human behavior is one that is restricted by etiquette/manners and respect/consideration for others. Behavior without restrictions is considered "uncivilized". Likewise, in other human endeavors, restrictions prevent abuse and guide towards beauty. The decorative arts have restrictions in theme to that of geometry, nature, and calligraphy. It is within these restrictions that beautiful, brilliantly creative works of (Islamic)art have been produced.

In Islam, the highest form of worship is when our convictions in faith(Iman) lead us to beautiful conduct/actions---"Ihsan".
Ihsan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is within this context---of striving for excellence, that Muslims look towards the rules of what is permissible and what is not.

Eastern cultures such as China and Japan have also understood that restrictions amplify beauty---The ink wash paintings of the East (Sumi-e in Japanese) are fantastic examples of how restrictions amplify beauty......

Haiku poetry is another example....these are from Hakyo Ishida....


"A grapefruit split open
bursts forth like joy
its color and smell"

and......


"For but an instant
setting sun transfigures
with gold a burnt land"
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Old 10-06-2014, 07:16 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,085,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

I wonder how many people go to church primarily to listen to the hymns and the organ or piano music?

From my Christian upbringing, I think it is mostly to show off their new clothes.


Morning Woodrow, hope all is well in your world. I just got out of city data jail, served 3 days for saying stuff I guess I am not supposed to say, I thought I was being fairly polite.

I ran into this before, where all the muslims ganged up on me with complaints, naturally none they could discuss with me, but use an outside source.
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