U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-23-2014, 04:54 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,827 times
Reputation: 531

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
I prefer Modern biographies. There is a lot of research that Modern historians have done on Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and the early Period. ---As far as I know, the original Ibn Ishaq does not exist anyway.....

I would recommend to Jima49 to broaden horizons and take in the opinions and works of a variety of historians......
And herein lies the problem, Where does a modern biography get the information, that only exists in two places on earth, Ishaq and Taburi.
A historian would need to get other records from that time period. and there is none.

A new book comes from the authors imagination, and a different person is created. And this very thing is being done as we speak, for westerners.
ie. the "SEERAH" is a 21st century, laughable, phony re-write of the Sira.

4/5th of Ishaq was destroyed because of "Matters that would distress people" and re-written by Ibn Hissiam, ( Bad spelling), 60 years later. What is left would be illegal in a pornographic movie.

But still, the oldest record.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-23-2014, 09:57 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,458 times
Reputation: 28
you would be surprised at what historians can find if they look......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2014, 10:23 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,827 times
Reputation: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
you would be surprised at what historians can find if they look......

I agree, and I like to see the supporting evidence.

To much of history as we know it has influences from the catholic church.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2014, 09:31 AM
 
120 posts, read 107,433 times
Reputation: 86
Assalam Alaikum Woodrow,
Here is a question for you,

What do you think about the Hadith about fasting "Ashoraa" the 10th of Dhu Alhijja?
When the Prophet PBUH came to Madina and saw Jews fasting................... then He said, next year I will fast the 9th and 10th. but He didn't reach that because He passed away

my question is,
This suppose to be when He first arrived to Madinah, found the Jews fasting that day, but the next year, He didn't live to fast that day and We know He lived in Madina about 11 years. how do We reconcile this?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2014, 09:47 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,827 times
Reputation: 531
He made a few trips to medina.

His first trim is recorded in the Meccan Qur'an.

It is in the Medina Quran he came in with an attitude.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2014, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by NABILBB View Post
Assalam Alaikum Woodrow,
Here is a question for you,

What do you think about the Hadith about fasting "Ashoraa" the 10th of Dhu Alhijja?
When the Prophet PBUH came to Madina and saw Jews fasting................... then He said, next year I will fast the 9th and 10th. but He didn't reach that because He passed away

my question is,
This suppose to be when He first arrived to Madinah, found the Jews fasting that day, but the next year, He didn't live to fast that day and We know He lived in Madina about 11 years. how do We reconcile this?
Wa Alaikum Salaam wa Ramatullahi wa Baraktuhu

It is a bit difficult to understand when looking at one Hadith.

Bukhari lists 24 Ahadith related to fasting on Ashura

To put things into context here are the 24

Quote:
arrowg.gif (163 bytes)009.091.370 - Accepting Information Given by a Truthful Person - - - -

Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa'

Allah's Apostle said to a man from the tribe of Al-Aslam, "Proclaim among your people (or the people) on the day of 'Ashura' (tenth of Muharram), 'Whosoever has eaten anything should fast for the rest of the day; and whoever has not eaten anything, should complete his fast.' "


arrowg.gif (163 bytes)006.060.261 - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - - - -

Narrated Ibn Abbas

When Allah's Apostle arrived at Medina, he found the Jews observing the fast on the day of 'Ashura' (10th of Muharram). The Prophet asked them (about it) and they replied, "This is the day when Moses became victorious over Pharaoh." The Prophet said (to the Muslims), "We are nearer to Moses than they, so fast on this day."


006.060.202 - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - - - -

Narrated Ibn Abbas

When the Prophet arrived at Medina, the Jews were observing the fast on 'Ashura' (10th of Muharram) and they said, "This is the day when Moses became victorious over Pharaoh," On that, the Prophet said to his companions, "You (Muslims) have more right to celebrate Moses' victory than they have, so observe the fast on this day."


006.060.031 - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - - - -

Narrated Aisha

During the Pre-lslamic Period of ignorance the Quraish used to observefasting on the day of 'Ashura', and the Prophet himself used to observe fasting on it too. But when he came to Medina, he fasted on that day and ordered the Muslims to fast on it. When (the order of compulsory fasting in ) Ramadan was revealed, fasting in Ramadan became an obligation, and fasting on 'Ashura' was given up, and who ever wished to fast (on it) did so, and whoever did not wish to fast on it, did not fast.


006.060.030 - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - - - -

Narrated 'Abdullah

That Al-Ash'ath entered upon him while he was eating. Al-Ash'ath said,"Today is 'Ashura." I said (to him), "Fasting had been observed (on such a day) before (the order of compulsory fasting in) Ramadan was revealed. But when (the order of fasting in) Ramadan was revealed, fasting (on 'Ashura') was given up, so come and eat."


006.060.029 - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - - - -

Narrated 'Aisha

The people used to fast on the day of 'Ashura' before fasting in Ramadan was prescribed but when (the order of compulsory fasting in) Ramadan was revealed, it was up to one to fast on it (i.e. 'Ashura') or not.

006.060.028 - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - - - -

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

Fasting was observed on the day of 'Ashura' (i.e. 10th of Muharram) bythe people of the Pre-lslamic Period. But when (the order of compulsory fasting) in the month of Ramadan was revealed, the Prophet said, "It is up to one to fast on it (i.e. day of 'Ashura') or not."


005.058.279 - Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar) - - - -

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

When the Prophet arrived at Medina he found that the Jews observed fast on the day of 'Ashura'. They were asked the reason for the fast. They replied, "This is the day when Allah caused Moses and the children of Israel to have victory over Pharaoh, so we fast on this day as a sign of glorifying it." Allah's Apostle said, "We are closer to Moses than you." Then he ordered that fasting on this day should beobserved.


005.058.278 - Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar) - - - -

Narrated Abu Musa

When the Prophet arrived at Medina, he noticed that some people among the Jews used to respect Ashura' (i.e. 10th of Muharram) and fast on it. The Prophet then said, "We have more right to observe fast on thisday." and ordered that fasting should be observed on it.


005.058.172 - Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar) - - - -

Narrated 'Aisha

'Ashura' (i.e. the tenth of Muharram) was a day on which the tribe of Quraish used to fast in the pre-lslamic period of ignorance. The Prophet also used to fast on this day. So when he migrated to Medina, he fasted on it and ordered (the Muslims) to fast on it. When the fasting of Ramadan was enjoined, it became optional for the people to fast or not to fast on the day of Ashura.


004.055.609 - Prophets - - - -

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

When the Prophet came to Medina, he found (the Jews) fasting on the day of 'Ashura' (i.e. 10th of Muharram). They used to say: "This is a great day on which Allah saved Moses and drowned the folk of Pharaoh. Moses observed the fast on this day, as a sign of gratitude to Allah."The Prophet said, "I am closer to Moses than they." So, he observed the fast (on that day) and ordered the Muslims to fast on it.


003.031.225 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa

The Prophet ordered a man from the tribe of Bani Aslam to announce amongst the people that whoever had eaten should fast the rest of the day, and whoever had not eaten should continue his fast, as that day was the day of 'Ashura' .


003.031.224 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

I never saw the Prophet seeking to fast on a day more (preferable to him) than this day, the day of 'Ashura', or this month, i.e. the monthof Ramadan.


003.031.223 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Abu Musa

The day of 'Ashura' was considered as 'Id day by the Jews. So the Prophet ordered, "I recommend you (Muslims) to fast on this day."


003.031.222 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

The Prophet came to Medina and saw the Jews fasting on the day of Ashura. He asked them about that. They replied, "This is a good day, the day on which Allah rescued Bani Israel from their enemy. So, Mosesfasted this day." The Prophet said, "We have more claim over Moses than you." So, the Prophet fasted on that day and ordered (the Muslims) to fast (on that day).

003.031.221 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Humaid bin 'Abdur Rahman

That he heard Muawiya bin Abi Sufyan on the day of 'Ashura' during theyear he performed the Hajj, saying on the pulpit, "O the people of Medina! Where are your Religious Scholars? I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'This is the day of 'Ashura'. Allah has not enjoined its fasting on you but I am fasting it. You have the choice either to fastor not to fast (on this day).' "


003.031.220 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Aisha

Quraish used to fast on the day of 'Ashura' in the Pre-lslamic period,and Allah's Apostle too, used to fast on that day. When he came to Medina, he fasted on that day and ordered others to fast, too. Later when the fasting of the month of Ramadan was prescribed, he gave up fasting on the day of 'Ashura' and it became optional for one to fast on it or not.


003.031.219 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated 'Aisha

Allah's Apostle ordered (the Muslims) to fast on the day of 'Ashura', and when fasting in the month of Ramadan was prescribed, it became optional for one to fast on that day ('Ashura') or not.

003.031.218 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Salim's father

The Prophet said, "Whoever wishes may fast on the day of 'Ashura'."

003.031.181 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Ar-Rubi' bint Mu'awadh

"The Prophet sent a messenger to the village of the Ansar in the morning of the day of 'Ashura' (10th of Muharram) to announce: 'Whoever has eaten something should not eat but complete the fast, andwhoever is observing the fast should complete it.' "She further said, "Since then we used to fast on that day regularly and also make our boys fast. We used to make toys of wool for the boys and if anyone of them cried for, he was given those toys till it was the time of the breaking of the fast.

003.031.147 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa

Once the Prophet ordered a person on 'Ashura' (the tenth of Muharram) to announce, "Whoever has eaten, should not eat any more, but fast, and who has not eaten should not eat, but complete his fast (till the end of the day).

003.031.117 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated 'Aisha

(The tribe of) Quraish used to fast on the day of Ashura' in the Pre-lslamic period, and then Allah's Apostle ordered (Muslims) to faston it till the fasting in the month of Ramadan was prescribed; whereupon the Prophet said, "He who wants to fast (on 'Ashura') may fast, and he who does not want to fast may not fast."


003.031.116 - Fasting - - - -

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

The Prophet observed the fast on the 10th of Muharram ('Ashura), and ordered (Muslims) to fast on that day, but when the fasting of the month of Ramadan was prescribed, the fasting of the 'Ashura' was abandoned. 'Abdullah did not use to fast on that day unless it coincided with his routine fasting by chance.

002.026.662 - Pilgrimmage (Hajj) - - - -

Narrated 'Aisha

The people used to fast on 'Ashura (the tenth day of the month of Muharram) before the fasting of Ramadan was made obligatory. And on that day the Ka'ba used to be covered with a cover. When Allah made the fasting of the month of Ramadan compulsory, Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever wishes to fast (on the day of 'Ashura') may do so; and whoever wishes to leave it can do so."


.
What I see being spoken of is it was a required fast until the revelation of fasting for Ramadan.

After the Revelation of Ramadan it was no longer obligatory. But Muhahammad(saws) stated he would observe it the next year, but died prior to then.

No conflict. There was little mention he was going to observe it in the prior years as it was obligatory. But, when it became optional, shortly before the Death of Muhammad(saws) he announced he would still observe the fast.

This assures the permissibility to fast on Ashura and it is not the imitating another religion.

Just my opinion based upon my limited knowledge of the Ahadith. Astagfirullah
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2014, 10:19 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,827 times
Reputation: 531
A problem using Ashura as a reference is that the Shia, and Sunni have two different meanings for it
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2014, 10:27 AM
 
120 posts, read 107,433 times
Reputation: 86
Thanks Woodrow, That makes sense
Jim - Whatever
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2014, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
A problem using Ashura as a reference is that the Shia, and Sunni have two different meanings for it
True

Shia/Sunni disagree about several matters. That helps explain why Shia are not Sunni and Sunni are not Shia.

In simple words Sunni believe they are correct and the Shia equally believe they are right.

I often run into this with my oldest Daughter who follows the Shi'ite path as I follow the Sunni path.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2014, 10:36 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,827 times
Reputation: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by NABILBB View Post
Thanks Woodrow, That makes sense
Jim - Whatever
Excelent response for the confusion, and contradiction, of Islamic text.

Keep in mind, the Shia event was about 60 years after muhammed, but was not written down for 125 years.

The sunni doc's, are 300 years too late to be considered for accuracy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top