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Old 10-18-2014, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
And what was happening when this verse was written.

It is manipulated to say muhammed tolerated all religions,

However, it was written when he was thrown out of Mecca, and sought refuge with the Jews of yathrub


He had no authority, and a dozen people.


He was on their turf, and kept his religion to his people, and the jews apparently allowed it.
The problem with that theory is it is a Makki Surah, revealed in Mecca. Even Wikislam agrees it is Meccan See HERE

In fact it was a very early Surah, the 18th one. A very long time before he was kicked out of Mecca.
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Old 10-18-2014, 05:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The problem with that theory is it is a Makki Surah, revealed in Mecca. Even Wikislam agrees it is Meccan See HERE

In fact it was a very early Surah, the 18th one. A very long time before he was kicked out of Mecca.

The problem with that theory, is it was written 300 years later, there is nothing from Mecca, or even near that same time period to confirm that.

He was fabricated into Islam when the religion was written.


And BTW, the 18th surah is 69 out of 114, hardly an earlier one.
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Old 10-18-2014, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
The problem with that theory, is it was written 300 years later, there is nothing from Mecca, or even near that same time period to confirm that.

He was fabricated into Islam when the religion was written.


And BTW, the 18th surah is 69 out of 114, hardly an earlier one.
Did you look at the Wikislam link? Surah 109 (Al Kafirun) was the 18th Surah revealed. Very early out of 114 Surah.

We are talking about Surah 109, Al-Kafirun, the Surah I poated in it's entirety.

We are not talking about Surah 18 I am talking about the 18 Surah revealed, which is 109, The suran I posted. The one you quoted "You have your religion, I have mine" from Surah 109-Al- Kafirun. The 18th Surah revealed in Chronological order.

Surah 109 is the 18th surah in Chronological order.
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Old 10-18-2014, 06:13 PM
 
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18th puts it in the meccan Qur;an, a vastly different attitude than the later medina one, and still written long after the events portrayed.

The religion was assembled long after Muhammed, and there is nothing from that time period.
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Old 10-18-2014, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
18th puts it in the meccan Qur;an, a vastly different attitude than the later medina one, and still written long after the events portrayed.

The religion was assembled long after Muhammed, and there is nothing from that time period.
Except for a very long history of oral tradition. While it is impossible to prove oral tradition, for those of us who believe we find it to be compelling.

It really comes down to being a question of: "Was Allaah(swt) the true and only source of the Qur'an?"

Not a provable thing, something we each have to find reason to believe in order to be convinced it is true.

I can not prove Allaah(SWT) exists but I firmly believe he does and he alone is the Source of the Qur'an.
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Old 10-18-2014, 07:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Except for a very long history of oral tradition. While it is impossible to prove oral tradition, for those of us who believe we find it to be compelling.

It really comes down to being a question of: "Was Allaah(swt) the true and only source of the Qur'an?"

Not a provable thing, something we each have to find reason to believe in order to be convinced it is true.

I can not prove Allaah(SWT) exists but I firmly believe he does and he alone is the Source of the Qur'an.
There is a serious problem with oral tradition, and just playing "telephone" will attest to that.

Also we have these supposed traditions in place, but nobody ever heard of them, nobody ever bothered to write them down.
islam's 1st 100 years is a black hole, from which nothing emerges.
Then writings come out 125 to 200 years later..
suddenly 300 years after the fact, there are over 600.000 writings, none of which have any history other than, "we said these exist". And the insnads tested, were proven false, missdated by hundreds of years.

"believe it or we will kill you".
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Old 10-18-2014, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
There is a serious problem with oral tradition, and just playing "telephone" will attest to that.

Also we have these supposed traditions in place, but nobody ever heard of them, nobody ever bothered to write them down.
islam's 1st 100 years is a black hole, from which nothing emerges.
Then writings come out 125 to 200 years later..
suddenly 300 years after the fact, there are over 600.000 writings, none of which have any history other than, "we said these exist". And the insnads tested, were proven false, missdated by hundreds of years.

"believe it or we will kill you".
While there are actually well over 1,000,000 Ahadith. That includes duplications from separate sources.

The existence of duplication from different sources is testimony of little if any change over the centuries.

the various collections do contain Ahadith that are found in other collections and often with a different source.
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Old 10-18-2014, 11:36 PM
 
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I referenced Bukhari when I said 600,000, and of these he found 7,000 he deemed authentic.

The method is how well they fit into the Qur'an.

7.000 out of 600,000, just indicates, there was a whole lot of BS going on.
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Old 10-19-2014, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
I referenced Bukhari when I said 600,000, and of these he found 7,000 he deemed authentic.

The method is how well they fit into the Qur'an.

7.000 out of 600,000, just indicates, there was a whole lot of BS going on.
The other 593,000 are not necessarily false although some definitely are. They were Ahadith that Bhukari could not verify the Isnad for.

Most if not all of them are in other collections but are not Sahih. Meaning they do not have a proven Isnad and/or are single reports with no other witnesses reporting the same thing.

Bukhari and Muslim are the only collections considered to be Sahih.
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Old 10-19-2014, 01:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The other 593,000 are not necessarily false although some definitely are. They were Ahadith that Bhukari could not verify the Isnad for.

Most if not all of them are in other collections but are not Sahih. Meaning they do not have a proven Isnad and/or are single reports with no other witnesses reporting the same thing.

Bukhari and Muslim are the only collections considered to be Sahih.
You say insnads as though they are real. These are 300 years after the fact, with no written history, they cannot be verified. at all, and those tested were proven phony.

And Muslim is even after Bukhari.
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