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Old 11-16-2014, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
So I have no idea which one that is.

I am referring to the one documented in the Qur'an and sunnah.
Which every Muslim I know follows and believes to be a religion of Peace and tolerance.

I do not think we follow what you believe is Sunnah nor interpret the Qur'an as you do.
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Old 11-16-2014, 08:51 PM
 
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I am not doubting that,
I am pretty sure of your peaceful intentions, however you do not speak for all muslims, and we already know a substantial percentage of muslims do not agree with your views.

What you have done, is pull out a peacefull part of a religion that is inherently violent.

another thing you are doing is evading the violent teachings of the religion and pretending the peacefull is the norm.

We have the documentation, and the proof in world events, throughout history and in the present times.

Denial, is the part that infuriated the west more than anything.
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Old 11-16-2014, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
I am not doubting that,
I am pretty sure of your peaceful intentions, however you do not speak for all muslims, and we already know a substantial percentage of muslims do not agree with your views.

What you have done, is pull out a peacefull part of a religion that is inherently violent.

another thing you are doing is evading the violent teachings of the religion and pretending the peacefull is the norm.

We have the documentation, and the proof in world events, throughout history and in the present times.

Denial, is the part that infuriated the west more than anything.
I only speak of that which I personally have found.

Even during my years as a Christian Evangelist preaching in North Africa and the Mideast I found Muslims to be among the most peaceful people I had encountered.

I do know that the region has changed drastically in the past 30 or so years, but I do not believe religion was the cause for the change.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:09 PM
 
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I firmly believe oil money, and power was the cause.

Modern weapons from other interests spawned the ability for conquest.

Islam was always about conquest, but they never had the ability do produce anything but swords.
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
I firmly believe oil money, and power was the cause.

Modern weapons from other interests spawned the ability for conquest.

Islam was always about conquest, but they never had the ability do produce anything but swords.
Check the history of Gunpowder and firearms

Quote:
The Arabs obtained firearms in the 14th century.[12] Al-Hassan claims that the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260 saw the Mamluks use against the Mongols "the first cannon in history" gunpowder formulae which were almost identical with the ideal composition for explosive gunpowder.[13][14] However, Khan states that it was invading Mongols who introduced gunpowder to the Islamic world[15] and cites Mamluk antagonism towards early riflemen in their infantry as an example of how gunpowder weapons were not always met with open acceptance in the Middle East.[16]
SOURCE

While the Muslims had Firearms prior to Europeans they did not use them in warfare.

They also had knowldege of making "Greek Fire" but seldom used it in warfare. HERE

Food for thought. Why didn't the Muslims use their superior weapons to conquer all the known world? Why doesn't Christian History make note of the use of Guns and explosives by Muslims? Why weren't the Muslims as aggressive as they had the capability to be?
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Old 11-16-2014, 11:06 PM
 
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Total fail.

They were actually defeated by Greek fire several times, by none other than the Greeks.
They prized captured European weapons, and captured tech.
The Phillidelphia was an example.

They did not manufacture guns, they stole them.
They did make cannon once they learned how by the Europeans.

Hell, even a few hundred years earlier they prized Indian swords because they were better steel.

The only thing that kept them at bay for 200 years was western tech surpassed theirs so much, they had no chance.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:49 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
The lack of freedom in the Middle East is not because of religion---both Muslims and Christians of the Middle East are in the "same boat" ---and it matters not that the dictator is an Islamist or a Secularist or whatever because Imperialism does not want to give autonomy to the region. That is why there is no freedom.

IMO, Islam promotes respect based on equality (all humanity is of equivalent human value), Justice tempered with Compassion and Mercy, and Reciprocity and Brotherhood among humanity. It also restrains excesses of humanity that lead to oppression, injustice, harm, arrogance...etc. Restraints (holding back) on excesses of human behavior leads to civility and a civilization based on high civility is more conducive to peace and liberty.
So, if we presume the West has a problem with unrestrained greed, an obsession with accumulating power and wealth, and an utter disregard for the rights and aspirations of the rest of their brothers in humanity....then I would say Islam is a very viable counter to the West. (However, I do not believe in the "clash of civilizations" theory myself....I think human diversity is important for human progress and having many ways of thinking and approaching life is best for humanity)
To blame the woes of the most troubled region in the world solely on imperialism is either obtuse or disingenuous (the inequities of Western imperialism from Balfour to the Shah to the promise of sovereignty after the fall of the Ottomans etc. are well documented). As Islam has become more strident, less 'secular', so the troubles of the region have increased. You refer to brotherhood, so why time and time again does Muslim kill Muslim? (Not the right kind of Muslim?) Religion, in this instance Islam, encourages tribalism, schisms, an attachment to the absurd, preposterous myth, in this case involving horses that fly, devils dogs, and in terms of equality, women who should be treated no worse than domestic animals (perhaps enlightened in 7th century Arabia, but a notion that's a fair way past its sell-by-date.) On freedom, what about the freedom, in most Muslim countries to say, I reject ... I reject Islam for being nonsense? Or for a Christian (I'm no supporter of that superstition either) man to marry a Muslim woman? Right, I didn't think so. Western secularism may be flawed, but in the scrappy shuffle for progress, it beats stultifying superstition hands down.
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
If you like foreign occupation so much---perhaps you should invite the Soviets to occupy the U.S.? The Afghan people prefer to be masters of their own destiny...so they fought the Soviet Occupation...and the U.S. was very happy to train, arm, and finance the extremists Taliban.....NOT because it believed in freedom for the people of Afghanistan....but because the U.S. wanted a proxy war with the Soviets!!. Then these mad dog extremists turn on the U.S. when it tries to occupy their country and these "freedom fighters " become "terrorists!!!....Meanwhile, instead of holding the country churning out these extremists accountable,---Saudi Arabia---the U.S. safeguards its interests...so that extremism is exported elsewhere.....Not to mention, Saddam Hussain was also America's "Best friend" when he was gassing his own people with American weapons and sending hundreds of young men to their deaths in a meaningless battle with Iran!!! Then when he wakes up from his own insanity----America paints him as a terrorist---invades his country and kills thousands of civilians, plunging the country into pain and misery. Americans use depleted uranium weapons causing babies to be born with deformities and leukemia, they disband 500,000 state employees such as doctors, nurses and other vital people that are needed to run the countries public works and security and safety. But that is not the end...NO...America continues to plunge the region into chaos and bloodshed......

and then you wonder why people are fleeing the region?.....they are fleeing because countries such as the U.S., Canada, U.K. are feeling guilty about the horrors they have caused and are giving asylum (visa) to the refugees they have created. But the vast numbers of people are still living in a destroyed region.

Rage?---For generations the people of the Middle East---not just the Muslims---have striven for change...for prosperity, freedom, and equality,....but all efforts have been crushed by America and its allies because THEY wanted to live in luxury and comfort at the expense of other nations and peoples...so they installed their corrupt proxy dictators who allowed them to steal and plunder their country so that the people of the West could have luxury---while others fell into poverty. And protests for change only led to imprisonment, torture and/or death. It is more of a wonder why the region did not explode earlier!!!

Follies of the West?---I,m afraid that is far too mild a term for the complete moral bankrupty and utter lack of restraint that the "West" exemplifies for the rest of us who are "Non-Western".

Yes---the "West" has done grand by its "own" people----but what has it done for the rest of humanity? except to bring pain, harm, war, oppression, poverty, corruption, injustice........and such.....
Hating the USA, Europe and "The West" as some giant boogieman monster is just nonsensical. The Muslims spent the first 1000 years of their existence stomping Christianity, grabbing up Christian lands, destroying Christian holy sites, frequently forcing Christians to convert to Islam, regularly oppressing native Christian populations in conquered lands, etc. They did the same sorts of things in India, Africa and western China. Islam was more advanced technologically and culturally for much of that time.

After 1600 or so, things started to change. The Christian West surged ahead in technology, culture and transitioned from highly barbaric to highly civilized. Islam still sits atop all the lands they conquered: Pretty much every nation the Black Sea and Mediterranean touch used to be Christian controlled territory. The West has made no effort to forcibly reconquer those lands and pressure Muslims living there to convert to Christianity. During the brief stint of European colonialism, the West was not in the business of proselyting. The notable exception to all this is Israel. Israel is very complex and is not as simple as East vs West. It's also a very tiny piece of land relative to the giant swaths of territory that Islam took from Christianity all those centuries ago.

Is the USA and Europe holding the Muslim world down? No they are not. They actually try to help Muslim nations modernize. But even if you are right, Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere should look at examples like Japan. Japan faced a huge uphill battle and rapidly modernized anyways. The did it because the refused to be stopped. It worked. If the Muslim nations of the Middle East want it bad enough, they can do it. For some reason, they just aren't trying.

The only reason/excuse that the USA has to send forces to the Middle East comes down to this: Extremist Muslims living there keep kicking the proverbial tiger in the face. If you kick a tiger in the face, it's rather stupid to expect the tiger to behave rationally. Solution: Stop kicking the tiger in the face. The utterly wrong-headed approach we're seeing currently is for extremist Muslims to ramp up efforts to keep kicking the tiger in the face. This inevitably leads to the Muslim nations they operate out of getting mauled by the tiger. So they do it again and get mauled again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Worse yet, that majority of good Muslims sit by and do nothing. Oh they might officially condemn ISIS or Al Qeda, but usually that's all they do. It is astounding how often they can't be bothered to do anything about Islam's extremist problems.

I'm reminded of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE

The West came up with lots of neat bits of technology and improved systems of virtually everything. The West quite happily shares these advances with the Middle East. The West buys billions and billions of dollars in Mid-East oil every year. And the Muslims of the Middle East feel that we've somehow wronged them, so they attack us. Then we strike back and we get stuck in a rather stupid endless cycle of violence and war.

Last edited by godofthunder9010; 11-17-2014 at 01:13 PM..
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:41 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,082,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Which every Muslim I know follows and believes to be a religion of Peace and tolerance.

I do not think we follow what you believe is Sunnah nor interpret the Qur'an as you do.
If you read the Sunnah, you do not need to interpret the Qur'an.
it spells it out very plainly.

If you do not read the sunnah, you are at the mercy of someone telling you what it means.
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
If you read the Sunnah, you do not need to interpret the Qur'an.
it spells it out very plainly.

If you do not read the sunnah, you are at the mercy of someone telling you what it means.
I do read the Sunnah the Hanafi Madhab and the Sahih Ahadith. I see no evidence that Ishaq's "Sira Rasool Allah" is The Sunnah. Some of the stories in it may be based uopn Sunnah. But some parts are either not trustworthy or are fabrications added later.
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