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Old 11-17-2014, 06:38 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,086,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do read the Sunnah the Hanafi Madhab and the Sahih Ahadith. I see no evidence that Ishaq's "Sira Rasool Allah" is The Sunnah. Some of the stories in it may be based uopn Sunnah. But some parts are either not trustworthy or are fabrications added later.
But it is Islam's oldest source and along with Tabari, confirms much of Muhammeds biography, and as I said, without these very important books, there is no muhammed, and Islam evaporates.
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:24 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
To blame the woes of the most troubled region in the world solely on imperialism is either obtuse or disingenuous (the inequities of Western imperialism from Balfour to the Shah to the promise of sovereignty after the fall of the Ottomans etc. are well documented). As Islam has become more strident, less 'secular', so the troubles of the region have increased. You refer to brotherhood, so why time and time again does Muslim kill Muslim? (Not the right kind of Muslim?) Religion, in this instance Islam, encourages tribalism, schisms, an attachment to the absurd, preposterous myth, in this case involving horses that fly, devils dogs, and in terms of equality, women who should be treated no worse than domestic animals (perhaps enlightened in 7th century Arabia, but a notion that's a fair way past its sell-by-date.) On freedom, what about the freedom, in most Muslim countries to say, I reject ... I reject Islam for being nonsense? Or for a Christian (I'm no supporter of that superstition either) man to marry a Muslim woman? Right, I didn't think so. Western secularism may be flawed, but in the scrappy shuffle for progress, it beats stultifying superstition hands down.
I must blame the West---to not do so would be morally callous. Not just as a Muslim but also as a human being. The "troubles" in the region have always been there---would you advocate that the oppressed live quietly under their oppression?---that is what the European Jews and African-American slaves did---and it got them nothing but more misery. It is the duty of all good and moral people to strive against oppression. That is why Nelson Mandela is considered a hero by most of the world (though America considered him a terrorist). Blame must also be put on those over-zealous Muslims like Al-Qaeda and ISIS, who use the wrong means to attain justice and freedom. However, let me also remind the "West" that their own paths to attaining freedom and justice were just as messy and bloody. ---remember the french revolution and the guillotine? or the 1781 massacres of Native Americans by George Washington (famed "Indian killer" because he butchered Native Americans in the Indian wars)

Islam encourages Universality and discourages tribalism. That is why the concept of the Ummah is so powerful---and the Hajj promotes this universality in a way that people can see, feel, and understand. The concept of "brotherhood" is not just confined to Muslims---but extends to all of humanity in the term "Bani Adam" (Children of Adam) which promotes the idea that all humanity is one family. Those Muslims who have fallen into schisms and tribalism have erred. It is upto us Muslims to bring them back to the right way.

1400 years ago, Islam promoted the idea that all humanity was equal (of equivalent human value) in the eyes of God. Such a concept did not yet exist in America at the time of its independence when "equality" was confined to white, male property-owners only and excluded all other human beings.

freedom of choice---
Quran 39:41
Sahih International
Indeed, We sent down to you the Book for the people in truth. So whoever is guided - it is for [the benefit of] his soul; and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And you are not a manager over them.
Yusuf Ali
Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.
Quran 6:107
Sahih International
But if Allah had willed, they would not have associated. And We have not appointed you over them as a guardian, nor are you a manager over them.
Yusuf Ali
If it had been Allah's plan, they would not have taken false gods: but We made thee not one to watch over their doings, nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.
....and many more....but I think these will suffice...........

I agree with you that belief in superstitions is of no use to humanity...the Quran also discourages belief in superstitions. For a belief (an a priori presumption) to be useful---it must be of benefit to humanity. In Islam, the core principle from which all other ethico-moral principles are derived is called Tawheed (Unity). In is simplest form it is understood as "One God". ...but its ramifications are huge. Timothy Winters (Sheikh Abdal Hakim Murad said "The Universal religion is not merely the religion that claims to be for all; it is the religion that claims God has always been for all. There can be no Muslim scandal of particularity."
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:35 PM
 
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Not one single thing in that statement is true.
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:40 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Hating the USA, Europe and "The West" as some giant boogieman monster is just nonsensical. ......

Is the USA and Europe holding the Muslim world down? No they are not. They actually try to help Muslim nations modernize. But even if you are right, Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere should look at examples like Japan. Japan faced a huge uphill battle and rapidly modernized anyways. The did it because the refused to be stopped. It worked. If the Muslim nations of the Middle East want it bad enough, they can do it. For some reason, they just aren't trying.

The only reason/excuse that the USA has to send forces to the Middle East comes down to this: Extremist Muslims living there keep kicking the proverbial tiger in the face. If you kick a tiger in the face, it's rather stupid to expect the tiger to behave rationally. Solution: Stop kicking the tiger in the face. The utterly wrong-headed approach we're seeing currently is for extremist Muslims to ramp up efforts to keep kicking the tiger in the face. This inevitably leads to the Muslim nations they operate out of getting mauled by the tiger. So they do it again and get mauled again. Wash, rinse, repeat.
...
The West is not some giant boogeyman...and neither is Islam.

But perhaps you are naive?....Japan was "allowed" to progress because its only strategic value is the base (American military base) and as long as Japan follows America's orders in its foreign policy---America leaves it alone to "progress"---whatever that might mean......

So, you are saying that it was wrong for Nelson Mandela to fight against oppression? He should not have kicked the "tiger" but...what?...suck it up and endure?.....
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
But it is Islam's oldest source and along with Tabari, confirms much of Muhammeds biography, and as I said, without these very important books, there is no muhammed, and Islam evaporates.
Do you have any evidence either is widely read by Muslims. It seems non-Muslims are the most avid readers of both.
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:45 PM
 
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South Africa is a doomed country, don't you follow current events.
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:51 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,086,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Do you have any evidence either is widely read by Muslims. It seems non-Muslims are the most avid readers of both.
Here again you are using the term muslims, as though it is straight across the board, one big happy family, which it is not.

From the contact I have had with muslims, I find most are functionaly illiterate, knowing only what they are told to know,
Brainwashing, praying 5 times a day keeps them in line, at the leaders bidding.

Those who do read about the religion, read 21st century re-writes of ancient text. absolute bull.

Those who follow the actual text are potential terrorists, wife abusers, total missfits, etc.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Here again you are using the term muslims, as though it is straight across the board, one big happy family, which it is not.

From the contact I have had with muslims, I find most are functionaly illiterate, knowing only what they are told to know,
Brainwashing, praying 5 times a day keeps them in line, at the leaders bidding.

Those who do read about the religion, read 21st century re-writes of ancient text. absolute bull.

Those who follow the actual text are potential terrorists, wife abusers, total missfits, etc.
Then you should be pleased to know very many of us "read 21st century re-writes of ancient text. absolute bull" and are not "Those who follow the actual text are potential terrorists, wife abusers, total missfits, etc"

Islam is very much individual. No one "Teaches" Islam we have the responsibility to search all sources and to seek to serve Allaah(swt) not satisfy some mysterious human rulers.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:32 PM
 
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Sounds good, but not realistic.

You have a prophet, nobody just learns about him through osmosis.

Somebody tells you, or you read it yourself.

If you chose to read Tom Sawyer, you will learn nothing about him.
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Old 11-18-2014, 02:27 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,508,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
... But perhaps you are naive?....Japan was "allowed" to progress because its only strategic value is the base (American military base) and as long as Japan follows America's orders in its foreign policy---America leaves it alone to "progress"---whatever that might mean......
Japan was the only industrialized nation in Asia pre-WW2, though what they've done since - 'particularly considering they've been under the oppressive yoke of Uncle Sam' has been pretty impressive. If Japan had been an Islamic country, there's little chance that it would have become an economic superpower (until recently the world's second economy). The 'progress' you refer to in quotes has produced a society which is the envy of many. No doubt many Muslims given half the chance would be happy to live there (of course, escaping the terrible yoke of imperialism in their own lands).
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