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Old 11-23-2014, 11:37 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
They burned the major libraries which were in Tripoli, Baghdad and Egypt. As the books were all hand written most were the only copies in existence.
The crusaders were in Bagdad? I thought is was the Mongols who sacked it.
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
The West is not some giant boogeyman...and neither is Islam.

But perhaps you are naive?....Japan was "allowed" to progress because its only strategic value is the base (American military base) and as long as Japan follows America's orders in its foreign policy---America leaves it alone to "progress"---whatever that might mean......
I'm talking about Japan long before World War II. Similar to the entire Middle East, North Africa and pretty much every Muslim-majority nation, Japan was complete backwards. From 1639 to 1853, Japan was intensely isolationist and pretty much perpetually living in the dark ages.

In 1853, the USA engaged in a bit of bully diplomacy. Admiral Perry steamed four warships into Tokyo Harbor and demanded that Japan open trade relations. The Japanese had no means of resisting. They were so far behind technologically, they couldn't have hoped to win if it had come down to a fight.

So what did Japan do next? Did they sulk and whine about being bullied? Did they just lay down and take it?No. Japan modernized rapidly and thoroughly. They took all of the good stuff the West had and copied it. Their goal? To become more modern than the modern West so they could never be bullied like that again. By 1890, Japan was major power to be reckoned with in the Far East. By 1905, Japan had handily beaten the Chinese and Russian Empires and were the equal of any European Power. And Japan did it all by themselves.

Japan during or after World War II has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The people of Japan had already modernized their nation. They were a world power on equal status as any nation on earth heading into WW2.

Quote:
So, you are saying that it was wrong for Nelson Mandela to fight against oppression? He should not have kicked the "tiger" but...what?...suck it up and endure?.....
Nelson Mandela learned a lesson. He started out as a terrorist and found himself imprisoned for a very long time because of it. It was only when he harnessed the power of non-violent protest that his people finally won their freedom.

As of September 11, 2001, the USA was not an occupying force in Afghanistan. It was not an occupying force in Iraq. The only US military bases in the region were there because nations like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait wanted us there to help protect them from Iraq. Then September 11th happened and extremist Islam kicked the proverbial tiger in the face. What did they think would happen?? Did they think we would do nothing? Osama bin Ladin wanted US forces to completely withdraw from the area. How did that work out for him?

Launching an attack against somebody who is vastly stronger than you is a dumb idea. A better idea = stop being the victim and make yourself strong by modernizing.
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,201,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
They burned the major libraries which were in Tripoli, Baghdad and Egypt. As the books were all hand written most were the only copies in existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
The crusaders were in Bagdad? I thought is was the Mongols who sacked it.
You are quite correct. The crusades never got anywhere near Egypt or Baghdad. The crusades were a mess, no doubt about it. The Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine) had asked for help from the Christians in the West. When those forces arrived, they were exactly the opposite of help. Rather than helping them out, the Crusaders attacked the Romans' allies, the Shi'a Muslims, who then occupied Egypt and Jerusalem. I can just imagine the Emperor screaming, "Nooooo!! Stop!!" Not that the Catholic forces would have listened of course.

Western European heavy cavalry was devastating in it's effectiveness. They managed to take roughly the territory of modern day Lebanon, Israel and Palestine ... then most of them called it a day and headed home. One wonders if the Crusaders even had a plan in the first place.

There is no doubt that the Catholic Crusaders were the barbarians then, and they most certainly acted the part. They were very backwards technologically, medically and in just about every other way.

The thing that really puzzles me is how Muslims spend the next 1000 years or so whining about the Crusades. Muslim atrocities against Christians before and since the Crusades absolutely dwarfs anything the Crusaders ever did. How many Christians were massacred in Sudan in the last 100 years by Muslims? Estimates range between 1 and 2 million. How many Christians died in the Armenian Holocaust? It is estimated that 1.5 million did. How many Christians has ISIS slaughtered or forcibly converted so far? How many more before it's over? How many Christians have been persecuted in Muslim occupied lands over the past 1500 years? Who knows??

Islam and Christianity need to find a way to live together in peace. Using events from about 1000 years ago as an excuse for a continuation of religious violence is just dumb.
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Old 11-26-2014, 03:38 PM
 
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Christians can get along, but Islam is not going to re-write the religion.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:40 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I'm talking about Japan long before World War II. Similar to the entire Middle East, North Africa and pretty much every Muslim-majority nation, Japan was complete backwards. From 1639 to 1853, Japan was intensely isolationist and pretty much perpetually living in the dark ages.

In 1853, the USA engaged in a bit of bully diplomacy. Admiral Perry steamed four warships into Tokyo Harbor and demanded that Japan open trade relations. The Japanese had no means of resisting. They were so far behind technologically, they couldn't have hoped to win if it had come down to a fight.

So what did Japan do next? Did they sulk and whine about being bullied? Did they just lay down and take it?No. Japan modernized rapidly and thoroughly. They took all of the good stuff the West had and copied it. Their goal? To become more modern than the modern West so they could never be bullied like that again. By 1890, Japan was major power to be reckoned with in the Far East. By 1905, Japan had handily beaten the Chinese and Russian Empires and were the equal of any European Power. And Japan did it all by themselves.

Japan during or after World War II has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The people of Japan had already modernized their nation. They were a world power on equal status as any nation on earth heading into WW2.

Nelson Mandela learned a lesson. He started out as a terrorist and found himself imprisoned for a very long time because of it. It was only when he harnessed the power of non-violent protest that his people finally won their freedom.

As of September 11, 2001, the USA was not an occupying force in Afghanistan. It was not an occupying force in Iraq. The only US military bases in the region were there because nations like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait wanted us there to help protect them from Iraq. Then September 11th happened and extremist Islam kicked the proverbial tiger in the face. What did they think would happen?? Did they think we would do nothing? Osama bin Ladin wanted US forces to completely withdraw from the area. How did that work out for him?

Launching an attack against somebody who is vastly stronger than you is a dumb idea. A better idea = stop being the victim and make yourself strong by modernizing.
It seems to me you blindly believe in a Westernized racist world view? Japan was backwards? No it was civilized and had a lot of culture of its own. Claiming other cultures/societies as "Backwards" and using that as justification to oppress and exploit is WRONG. Even before Christianity/West came onto the world stage---"trade" was happening---both the silk route and the spice route were the normal trading routes of the world and no one needed GUNS or WARSHIPS to force trade. People respected each other and traded peacefully.

Yes---Japan (and other countries in the region had to copy,) what to some may have seemed as the "barbaric" practices of the "West", in order to convince the West to treat them with respect. It was a necessary diplomatic balancing act and I think well played. The emergence of the Zaibatsu whose commercial and political interests coincided with the government was helpful.... though Japan was not yet an economic power.....
The Ottomans also played a similar diplomatic game---but they were a) too large, b) they were already industrialized, and c) were already an empire in decline internally....(and other factors)...so, IMO, their trajectory was somewhat different than that of Japan. Egypt also "modernized" but their geo-political and economic success was a threat to the "West" so they were not allowed to progress. The same can be said of the mess in many parts of South America---caused by U.S. interference......and today the situation in the Middle East is similar.

This is what Martin Luther King said of violence---
Rev. Martin Luther King Jr, March 1968:
“But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.”

And that is also how Neslon Mandela felt---that their voices remained unheard and unnoticed by non-voilence.
Nelson Mandela's legacy: As a leader, he was willing to use violence - LA Times
In the early 1950s, the ANC and the South African Indian Congress launched a nonviolent operation of strikes and protests called the Defiance Campaign against the unjust laws of apartheid.

By 1953, Mandela had decided that it wasn’t working. He felt that the ANC’s leaders — old-fashioned, traditional figures such as the party’s president, Albert Luthuli — were out of touch with reality.

In September of that year, he made a speech in the Johannesburg suburb of Sophiatown that was to be later famously known as the “No Easy Walk to Freedom” address.

and what is MOST RACIST of all is that when "Westerners" use violence for political change it is called "revolution" but when others do---it is called "terrorism". In a fair and just world where mechanisms existed that would defend the rights of the oppressed and exploited against the abuse of power by the entrenched "elites"---there would be no need for "revolutions"---but when there is no justice---we have to stand up and make the efforts to clear a path for it to grow. It would be preferable that such efforts be as peaceful as possible, and when not, that they cause the least harm and damage to others and to the Earth, but unfortunately, there will be some among us who are too impatient to wait---they want peace now whatever the cost. ----and that is the justification for violence the U.S. itself used when throwing the atom bomb on Japanese civilians. (terrorism). As a Muslim, and a human being, I condemn all terrorism---including that done by the West.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:47 PM
 
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Funny you should mention the silk road, t was closed by the muslims, forcing colombus to search another route.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:49 PM
 
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And BTW, Muslim is not a race.
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:07 PM
 
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Colombus?!!!??---that genocidal maniac?
Columbus, greed, slavery, and genocide: what really happened to the American Indians – Telegraph Blogs
"It was an orgy of looting and butchery, faithfully recorded by eyewitnesses. The accounts are too graphic to quote, but they detail the widespread massacres, including of children, dashing out their brains, and even feeding them to the armoured attack dogs. This senseless savagery was described as “pacification”.

Isabella and Ferdinand were the ones who financed that terrorist......

Another great example of how the "West" went about conducting "trade"........
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:23 PM
 
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You are getting a few people confused. the genocide happened after Columbus, he was just an explorer.

once the word was out of the potential treasures of the new world, every mercenary, fortune seeker ,and general ****up headed there.

Much was financed by the Catholic church.

Slaves were provided by the muslims.
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:34 PM
 
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Thanks for the info...I will look it up....but the article mentioned the description (which I quoted) as from the 2nd voyage of Colombus---the eyewitness as Bartolemo del la Casas....?.....

further from that same article.....

"Columbus’s second voyage had been on an altogether different scale to the first. Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain had kitted him out with 17 ships and 1,200 men, principally soldiers, including a cavalry troop of lancers. When they arrived at Hispaniola, the natives came out to meet them with fish and fruit “as if we had been their brothers”. In return, Columbus dispatched his troops to the island’s interior and the nearby islands to plunder the gold mines.

Armed with the latest weaponry and armoured mastiffs trained to rip people apart, the Spanish tortured, maimed, raped, slaughtered, and burned the inhabitants in search of gold. Bartolomé de Las Casas, an eyewitness who eventually became a Dominican friar and fought for the Indians’ rights, left a harrowing description:
… whenever the Spaniards found them, they pitilessly slaughtered everyone like sheep in a corral. It was a general rule among Spaniards to be cruel; not just cruel, but extraordinarily cruel so that harsh and bitter treatment would prevent Indians from daring to think of themselves as human beings or having a minute to think at all. So they would cut an Indian’s hands and leave them dangling by a shred of skin and they would send him on saying “Go now, spread the news to your chiefs.” They would test their swords and their manly strength on captured Indians and place bets on the slicing off of heads or the cutting of bodies in half with one blow. They burned or hanged captured chiefs."


....it seems to be from the 2nd voyage..?....or did I read it wrong?.......
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