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Old 11-28-2014, 09:40 PM
 
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Most probably you are right, this was a military expedition for gold, and headed up by merciless killers.
Colombus himself was not a military man.
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:49 PM
 
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I spent the last hour reading about him, he was one nasty MoFo.
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Old 11-29-2014, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
Thanks for the info...I will look it up....but the article mentioned the description (which I quoted) as from the 2nd voyage of Colombus---the eyewitness as Bartolemo del la Casas....?.....

further from that same article.....

"Columbus’s second voyage had been on an altogether different scale to the first. Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain had kitted him out with 17 ships and 1,200 men, principally soldiers, including a cavalry troop of lancers. When they arrived at Hispaniola, the natives came out to meet them with fish and fruit “as if we had been their brothers”. In return, Columbus dispatched his troops to the island’s interior and the nearby islands to plunder the gold mines.

Armed with the latest weaponry and armoured mastiffs trained to rip people apart, the Spanish tortured, maimed, raped, slaughtered, and burned the inhabitants in search of gold. Bartolomé de Las Casas, an eyewitness who eventually became a Dominican friar and fought for the Indians’ rights, left a harrowing description:
… whenever the Spaniards found them, they pitilessly slaughtered everyone like sheep in a corral. It was a general rule among Spaniards to be cruel; not just cruel, but extraordinarily cruel so that harsh and bitter treatment would prevent Indians from daring to think of themselves as human beings or having a minute to think at all. So they would cut an Indian’s hands and leave them dangling by a shred of skin and they would send him on saying “Go now, spread the news to your chiefs.” They would test their swords and their manly strength on captured Indians and place bets on the slicing off of heads or the cutting of bodies in half with one blow. They burned or hanged captured chiefs."

....it seems to be from the 2nd voyage..?....or did I read it wrong?.......
Yes, yes, yes. The Spaniards were very mean and nasty ... 500 years ago! That all goes back to the same time period where Christians were slaughtering Muslims and Muslims were slaughtering Christians. While the Spaniards were eradicating Muslims in Spain, the Ottomans were taking Constantinople, killing every last survivor, rampaging through the Balkans so forth. There is plenty of guilt on both sides of those wars.

What do we have going on now? Every Time somebody insults Islam in Europe, Muslims in the predominantly Muslims nations of the world go ballistic and start slaughtering lots and lots of totally unrelated people. There is prejudice in the West, this is true. But we do not go out of our way to massacre Muslims. The US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq did not take women captive, forcibly marry them, then bring them back to the USA against their will.

We could go back and forth about debating who was more barbaric hundreds of years ago. Here's a nice link to Muslim atrocities. Have fun with that.

But it's entirely missing the point. Imagine two crazy boys. One is named Ali and one is named Joshua. They are in something of a competition to see who can wreak more havoc. They spray paint graffiti all over, get in fights, blow up mailboxes and that sort of thing. Fast forward 20 years. Ali is still doing all that stuff and Joshua isn't. Ali is poor. Joshua worked hard and made something of himself and is wealthy. One man grew up and the other man didn't. Ali whining about what Joshua used to do is irrelevant to the present.

Islam needs to grow up. Especially in Muslim countries, Muslim men are still treating their women worse than cattle, constantly tormenting minorities who disagree with them and can instantly go from zero to bloody riot over the most trivial of things. Much of it may come down to the founder of each respective religion. Christianity was founded by a man of peace. Islam was founded by a man of bloody conquest. But I will continue to hold out hope that Islam can grow up and one day learn to play well with others. It just sucks constantly being disappointed. The fact that an organization like ISIS was ever able to gain any sort of foothold in the Middle East is a strong indication of just how backwards Muslims are in those lands.
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Old 11-29-2014, 03:59 PM
 
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Good post, and so true, all people went through their barbaran stages, some outgrew it, some did not, and never will.
Islam is one of those, the religion and people cannot evolve, without violating the religion, and they are kept such a close eye on, dissenters are killed quickly, it just will not happen.
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Good post, and so true, all people went through their barbaran stages, some outgrew it, some did not, and never will.
Islam is one of those, the religion and people cannot evolve, without violating the religion, and they are kept such a close eye on, dissenters are killed quickly, it just will not happen.
Islam can change! The Muslims of the world can choose to change. The fact of the matter is they just aren't. The Muslim world so poisoned by their jealousy of the West, yet they just keep sabotaging themselves. The approach is so nonsensical. Imagine if all predominantly Christian nations were the ones that had fallen so far behind technologically, culturally and intellectually. Now imagine if the vast majority of folks in Europe become Amish, figuring that God would fix it for them in return. That is essentially the Muslim-world's approach to the problem. Organizations like ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Taliban all want to turn the clock back 1000 years in as many things as possible. By doing this, they seem to think that Allah will intervene on their behalf.

Truth of the matter is, whether you call him God or YHWH or Allah, he tends to help those who help themselves. For some reason, Muslim nations almost never figure that out.
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:45 AM
 
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You ask:



“Can Islam be reformed?” No, it can’t! To reform Islam you have to first get rid of Muhammad and second get rid of the Quran. You have to take out a great portion of that book which is violent. The rest is nonsense and absurdity. But this you can’t do, because you have no authority to do such a thing. Muhammad said that he has perfected his religion (Q. 5:3). How can you improve something, which is perfect? You can’t change the Quran. You can’t reform it. All you can do is to reinterpret and, for example pretend, “slay the unbelievers wherever you find them” means something else.
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:57 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
You ask:



“Can Islam be reformed?” No, it can’t! To reform Islam you have to first get rid of Muhammad and second get rid of the Quran. You have to take out a great portion of that book which is violent. The rest is nonsense and absurdity. But this you can’t do, because you have no authority to do such a thing. Muhammad said that he has perfected his religion (Q. 5:3). How can you improve something, which is perfect? You can’t change the Quran. You can’t reform it. All you can do is to reinterpret and, for example pretend, “slay the unbelievers wherever you find them” means something else.
Sort of like christianity, right? It is not like the bible is exactly a comforting bed time story, is it? Christianity can't be reformed either.

My perspective? The sooner rational people dumb their superstitious religions, the better off the world would be.

It ain't gonna happen any time soon.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
You ask:
“Can Islam be reformed?” No, it can’t! To reform Islam you have to first get rid of Muhammad and second get rid of the Quran. You have to take out a great portion of that book which is violent. The rest is nonsense and absurdity. But this you can’t do, because you have no authority to do such a thing. Muhammad said that he has perfected his religion (Q. 5:3). How can you improve something, which is perfect? You can’t change the Quran. You can’t reform it. All you can do is to reinterpret and, for example pretend, “slay the unbelievers wherever you find them” means something else.
“slay the unbelievers wherever you find them” a favorite quote non-Muslims seem to believe is a command.

One needs to read the whole thing.

9:1 (Y. Ali) A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

9:2 (Y. Ali) Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

9:3 (Y. Ali) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

9:4 (Y. Ali) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

9:5 (Y. Ali) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:6 (Y. Ali) If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

9:7 (Y. Ali) How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

9:8 (Y. Ali) How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.

9:9 (Y. Ali) The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.

9:10 (Y. Ali) In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.

9:11 (Y. Ali) But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.

9:12 (Y. Ali) But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

This was relating to a specific group of people at a specific time and specific circumstances.
The treaty had been violated. A state of war now existed. The Pagans were told to get out of Mecca and given a time frame. If they failed to leave after the time those remaining were subject to being killed.

This is not a general command for us to kill unbelievers simply because they are not Muslim.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:14 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,086,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Sort of like christianity, right? It is not like the bible is exactly a comforting bed time story, is it? Christianity can't be reformed either.

My perspective? The sooner rational people dumb their superstitious religions, the better off the world would be.

It ain't gonna happen any time soon.
Christianity itself is not really a bad religion, and for people who chose religions, it is one of the better ones.
Jesus, weather you believe in him or not, is a pretty good role model.

Islam on the other hand is totally different.

The main character raided for booty, raped and murdered his way across the land.

and the orders to follow his actions are open ended, and for all time.

There is no comparison between the two.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:17 PM
 
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:5 (Y. Ali) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


And if you recall, it was Muhammed himself who first violated the sacred months.


And please, trying to take apart one verse is not good if I post ten that say pretty mush the same thing/

How will you do that, say they are all misquoted.
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