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Old 12-01-2014, 12:25 PM
 
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The Qur'an:
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Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do." Translation from the Noble Quran

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

" Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down - hence abrogating what came before, which includes the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"Let there be no compulsion in religion...".
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
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The Qur'an:
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Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do." Translation from the Noble Quran

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

" Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down - hence abrogating what came before, which includes the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"Let there be no compulsion in religion...".
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Again you are quoting single ayyats and not reading the content

Quote:
8:31 (Y. Ali) When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients."

8:32 (Y. Ali) Remember how they said: "O Allah if this is indeed the Truth from Thee, rain down on us a shower of stones form the sky, or send us a grievous penalty."

8:33 (Y. Ali) But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon.

8:34 (Y. Ali) But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.

8:35 (Y. Ali) Their prayer at the House (of Allah. is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (Its only answer can be), "Taste ye the penalty because ye blasphemed."

8:36 (Y. Ali) The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-

8:37 (Y. Ali) In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.

8:38 (Y. Ali) Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

8:39 (Y. Ali) And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
Notice in there the word fight is used not the word kill. This is no different from your fight against Islam. Fighting need not be violent nor incuir any physical harm to others



The next ayyat 9:29. Again notice the word fight is used not kill. Yet in this surah in 9:5 it is noted kill was used and the condition that it would be used. This is not a command to go around killing non-Muslims for not being Muslim

Quote:
9:26 (Y. Ali) But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith.

9:27 (Y. Ali) Again will Allah, after this, turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:28 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

9:29 (Y. Ali) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:23 PM
 
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Woodrow, you are getting desperate, the word kill is used a lot, as is fight, and there are far more verses than this one, you cannot re-write them all.
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:26 PM
 
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Quran (2:191-193) -

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (the Noble Quran)
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:28 PM
 
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The problem here is that most of Islam does not follow your version of it..
Don't you think you should be spreading your version to muslims, instead of the Kaffir.


You do realize in a muslim country they will kill you for that.
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:44 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Christianity itself is not really a bad religion, and for people who chose religions, it is one of the better ones.
Jesus, weather you believe in him or not, is a pretty good role model.
Well, first of all you would have to ignore all that stuff in the OT, which neither christians nor muslims do.

Secondly, I wonder why your good role model talked about how to beat slaves, but never said one should not own them? Not the role model one should emulate or adore, don't you think?

Quote:
Islam on the other hand is totally different.

The main character raided for booty, raped and murdered his way across the land.

and the orders to follow his actions are open ended, and for all time.

There is no comparison between the two.
Well, Yahweh had a pretty good hand at the killing of innocents. In fact, he performed and commanded genocides to be performed.

Not a great example for a moral indicator. At least in my books.
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Woodrow, you are getting desperate, the word kill is used a lot, as is fight, and there are far more verses than this one, you cannot re-write them all.
I am not rewriting any. Every one of them when read in the content of the surah does not command us to kill anyone simply because they are not Muslim. The words fight and kill are not interchangeable, fight does not mean to kill.
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Well, first of all you would have to ignore all that stuff in the OT, which neither christians nor muslims do.

Secondly, I wonder why your good role model talked about how to beat slaves, but never said one should not own them? Not the role model one should emulate or adore, don't you think?



Well, Yahweh had a pretty good hand at the killing of innocents. In fact, he performed and commanded genocides to be performed.

Not a great example for a moral indicator. At least in my books.
We are speaking of christianity, not judism.

And It would seem slavery was the commonplace at the time, while I am not condoning it, it was there to deal with.

You have to look long and hard to find quotes about Jesus that are not very good.

While it is opposite with Islam.

You have to really cherry pick to find good, and it only applies to the group you are in.


The sheer volume of the numbers speak for themselves.
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am not rewriting any. Every one of them when read in the content of the surah does not command us to kill anyone simply because they are not Muslim. The words fight and kill are not interchangeable, fight does not mean to kill.
while fight and kill may not be interchangeable to us, there are enough incidents of killing, and specific orders to kill, there is no question how they are used.

You cannot take one verse and try to manipulate the entire text.
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Old 12-01-2014, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
while fight and kill may not be interchangeable to us, there are enough incidents of killing, and specific orders to kill, there is no question how they are used.

You cannot take one verse and try to manipulate the entire text.

Nor can you ignore the full text and assume a verse is a command. For example in surah 9 ayyat 1-12 are recited as a single sentence.

In the original Arabic there are no line numbers nor separation of sentences. The Qur'an was revealed as recitations not in written form,the divisions come from the change of rhythm in the recitation. The line numbering is not part of the Qur'an that is a convenience used only in the written form for reference.


Yes kill means kill, but you need to read the entire surah to know the conditions that allow it, there are no commands to kill anyone for the simple reason they are not Muslim.



.
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