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Old 12-01-2014, 02:28 PM
 
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Yes, you need to read the full text.

Muhammed went on a 20 year rampage were he KILLED, all who did not convert or pay the jizya.

sometimes he killed them anyway.
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Old 12-01-2014, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Well, first of all you would have to ignore all that stuff in the OT, which neither christians nor muslims do.

Secondly, I wonder why your good role model talked about how to beat slaves, but never said one should not own them? Not the role model one should emulate or adore, don't you think?

Well, Yahweh had a pretty good hand at the killing of innocents. In fact, he performed and commanded genocides to be performed.

Not a great example for a moral indicator. At least in my books.
The Crusades, the 30 Years War and to some degree the Holocaust. These are the events that seem to have shocked Christians into tolerance. In backwards parts of the world like Central Africa, you can still find those who claim to be Christian who use the Bible to justify horrible things. But for the most part, the Christian nations of the world have learned to be very tolerant of other beliefs and ideologies.

Atheism is just as guilty as Christianity and Islam anyways. Marxism was the most focused effort at eradicating religion the world has ever seen. Marxists generally gave up and put "eliminate religion" on the back burner. It wasn't working out for them very well. But all power was always held by strict atheists -- the sort view all religion with utter contempt. Lenin, Kim Sung, Pol Pot, Castro, Stalin, Mao -- in less than a century they managed to make the many centuries of Christian atrocities look insignificant. They outdid any Christian or Muslim government ever at controlling people's lives. They created police states the likes of which the world had never seen before.

You and other atheists often say things like, "If only we got rid of religion! At the very least we should force religious people to sit on the sidelines while us more enlightened atheists of the world ran things. The world could finally be a better place to live for everyone!" Well that's what Marxism essentially was. The world was not a better place.

Truth is, people do bad things. War happens. Power hungry jerks will continue to try to control If you're not using religion as the excuse, you'll come up with something else. The interesting thing is that Marxism lacked that additional moralizing factor telling them when it was time to stop and telling them to be outraged when they discovered mass murder. Based on the only atheistic form of government the world has ever seen, the lack of religion makes the world a worse place, not better.
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Nor can you ignore the full text and assume a verse is a command. For example in surah 9 ayyat 1-12 are recited as a single sentence.

In the original Arabic there are no line numbers nor separation of sentences. The Qur'an was revealed as recitations not in written form,the divisions come from the change of rhythm in the recitation. The line numbering is not part of the Qur'an that is a convenience used only in the written form for reference.

Yes kill means kill, but you need to read the entire surah to know the conditions that allow it, there are no commands to kill anyone for the simple reason they are not Muslim.
Woodrow, you know that I want to see Islam become better. I really do. For many it already is. But the unfortunate fact of the matter is some Muslim imams and clerics use the passages Jim is referencing to justify things like honor killings and treating women like garbage. There's obviously room for such interpretations the Quran.

One of the most disappointing developments for me was the formation and astounding success of ISIS. I once ran across the text of a conversation between some American Secretary of State (whose name I don't recall at the moment) and Hosni Mubarak. The American suggested that Egypt and the rest of the Muslim word needed to become more democratic. Mubarak response? "Are you crazy? The extremists will be in control within a week!" I always took that as a corrupt dictator's lame excuse for staying in power. Turns out Mubarak was actually right. Remove the despotic dictator and Muslim extremists take control faster than I'd have thought possible.

A Christian equivalent of ISIS could never thrive in modern Europe or the USA. It would get squashed in pretty short order. It is very disappointing to see how successful ISIS has been. It has been even more disappointing to see that much touted good and moral majority of Muslims sit by and do nothing about ISIS.

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing."
-- (generally attributed to Edmund Burke)
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Woodrow, you know that I want to see Islam become better. I really do. For many it already is. But the unfortunate fact of the matter is some Muslim imams and clerics use the passages Jim is referencing to justify things like honor killings and treating women like garbage. There's obviously room for such interpretations the Quran.

One of the most disappointing developments for me was the formation and astounding success of ISIS. I once ran across the text of a conversation between some American Secretary of State (whose name I don't recall at the moment) and Hosni Mubarak. The American suggested that Egypt and the rest of the Muslim word needed to become more democratic. Mubarak response? "Are you crazy? The extremists will be in control within a week!" I always took that as a corrupt dictator's lame excuse for staying in power. Turns out Mubarak was actually right. Remove the despotic dictator and Muslim extremists take control faster than I'd have thought possible.

A Christian equivalent of ISIS could never thrive in modern Europe or the USA. It would get squashed in pretty short order. It is very disappointing to see how successful ISIS has been. It has been even more disappointing to see that much touted good and moral majority of Muslims sit by and do nothing about ISIS.

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing."
-- (generally attributed to Edmund Burke)


As Islam has no central human authority and no ordained clergy it is organized quite differently than Christianity. It is basically all personal responsibility. Another issue nearly 3/4 of the worlds Muslims live in only 5 countries Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India and China. They are a very small minority in India and China. The result being about 25% of the worlds Muslims live in 46 Islamic Nation, most being very small with no significant military.

Another problem is many Muslims do oppose groups such as ISIS but they seldom get any Media attention.
Very few Islamic Nations have the ability to fight any terrorist group with military strength.
To put things in perspective The USA has an active Militia of 1,369,532 Indonesia the largest Islamic nation with a population of 250,000,000 has an active militia of 302,000 SOURCE


Among the 10 strongest military Nations the only Islamic nation to make the list is Turkey which is number 8 on the list SOURCE

For the most part all the Muslim world can do against ISIS is local protests and demonstration, which are done
See HERE

There is not much the Muslim world can do regarding ISIS except condemn their actions. Which nearly every Muslim is doing.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:17 PM
 
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Virtually all muslim nations pumping oil have the resources to fight ISIS and any other group that is against Islam.

ISIS is Islam in it's purest form, and if they would direct their funds to really taking care of the country they could do it, except their own military would reject them as apostates.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,056 posts, read 4,215,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As Islam has no central human authority and no ordained clergy it is organized quite differently than Christianity. It is basically all personal responsibility. Another issue nearly 3/4 of the worlds Muslims live in only 5 countries Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India and China. They are a very small minority in India and China. The result being about 25% of the worlds Muslims live in 46 Islamic Nation, most being very small with no significant military.

Another problem is many Muslims do oppose groups such as ISIS but they seldom get any Media attention.
Very few Islamic Nations have the ability to fight any terrorist group with military strength.
To put things in perspective The USA has an active Militia of 1,369,532 Indonesia the largest Islamic nation with a population of 250,000,000 has an active militia of 302,000 SOURCE


Among the 10 strongest military Nations the only Islamic nation to make the list is Turkey which is number 8 on the list SOURCE

For the most part all the Muslim world can do against ISIS is local protests and demonstration, which are done
See HERE

There is not much the Muslim world can do regarding ISIS except condemn their actions. Which nearly every Muslim is doing.
If it is true that the vast majority of Muslims are good people that oppose radical Islamists like ISIS, then logically we should expect the majority of Muslims within ISIS controlled territory and throughout the Middle East those same good Muslims. Good people. Moral people. People who oppose public beheadings, bride-by-capture kidnappings, honor killings, etc. If they really are a majority, they are an extremely silent majority.

Out of that same 25% of Muslims in the world you cite as living in the Middle East, ISIS was formed in it's entirety -- and formed from a minority within that 25% of the world's Muslims. The radicalized minority is using violence and intimidation. It's not so very different than Apartheid in South Africa with a small minority terrorizing the larger majority into submission. The difference? That silent do-nothing majority of good Muslims in the Middle East had all the same resources at their disposal that ISIS did when it was formed. They still have the same resources available to them. They could stand up and fight ISIS and other extremists. They outnumber the extremists by a sizable margin after all. They just choose not to. Ultimately, just sitting by and letting a bunch of crazies use the religion you cherish to justify a homicidal rampage across the Middle East isn't much better than jumping in and helping them.

I think watching their cherished religion dragged through the mud and made to look like a religion that turns nice people into raving homicidal lunatics should be motivation enough for the good Muslims of the world to actually do something a little more serious than denouncing ISIS. It should be enough for sane Muslims of the world to stand up and fight for the honor of Islam. So why don't they?

Last edited by godofthunder9010; 12-01-2014 at 09:02 PM..
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:41 PM
 
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ISIS is following the footsteps of Muhammed,and to deny them is apostasy.

Nobody is fighting them for religious reasons, but rather personal ones of being overrunning by them.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:45 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,107,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The Crusades, the 30 Years War and to some degree the Holocaust. These are the events that seem to have shocked Christians into tolerance. In backwards parts of the world like Central Africa, you can still find those who claim to be Christian who use the Bible to justify horrible things. But for the most part, the Christian nations of the world have learned to be very tolerant of other beliefs and ideologies.

Atheism is just as guilty as Christianity and Islam anyways. Marxism was the most focused effort at eradicating religion the world has ever seen. Marxists generally gave up and put "eliminate religion" on the back burner. It wasn't working out for them very well. But all power was always held by strict atheists -- the sort view all religion with utter contempt. Lenin, Kim Sung, Pol Pot, Castro, Stalin, Mao -- in less than a century they managed to make the many centuries of Christian atrocities look insignificant. They outdid any Christian or Muslim government ever at controlling people's lives. They created police states the likes of which the world had never seen before.
Marxist were into politics, not religion. Don't even try and relate the atheism with despots, because that doesn't even warrant a "try".

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:53 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,086,134 times
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Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

a rep for you.
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,056 posts, read 4,215,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Marxist were into politics, not religion. Don't even try and relate the atheism with despots, because that doesn't even warrant a "try".
Question: How many of the following men were atheists?
Vladimir Lenin
Joseph Stalin
Fidel Castro
Pol Pot
Kim Sung
Mao Zedong

Answer: All of them.

Question: How many tried to eradicate all religions?

Answer: All of them.

Your statement that Marxism wasn't interested in religion is complete nonsense. They were very very interested in wiping out all forms of religion. That is what Karl Marx taught. Marx taught them that religion was a tool of the bourgeoisie to enslave and manipulate the masses. That is why Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and every other Communist founder wanted to wipe it out. Eventually, they settled for postponing the elimination of religion and instead forced religions to become a tool to manipulate the people. How ironic!!

Quote:
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
Nice quote, but where is your evidence proving it?? Where is your evidence that the world would be a better place without religion? You have none.

Marxism is the only society of any significance that has ever forcibly told the religious folks to sit down, shut up and let the non-believers have the exclusive right to run the country. It is the only system that was run by nothing but atheists. That means it is the only system from which we can draw any conclusions from on the matter.
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