U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 11-15-2014, 09:34 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,827 times
Reputation: 531

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
But the bible ordered it. When did it change, and don't tell me the 'Jesus fullfilled' story. There is nothing in the gospels that changes the OT directives.

Then the question becomes, are the faithful picking and choosing which part of the bible to follow.

BTW, not all Muslims do what is described in both the OT and the koran either.
A few common mistakes.

You are confusing Muslims, and Islam.

Muslims are people, human beings, susceptible to the forces around them to go the directions they go.

Islam is a written ideology that cannot change.

The OT, is a history book, and the basis of the jewish religion.

The NT is Christian.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-15-2014, 10:23 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,503,833 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
But the bible ordered it. When did it change, and don't tell me the 'Jesus fullfilled' story. There is nothing in the gospels that changes the OT directives.

Then the question becomes, are the faithful picking and choosing which part of the bible to follow.

BTW, not all Muslims do what is described in both the OT and the koran either.
It's an exercise in folly to mess with comparatives. All religions are bad, all cause nothing but trouble -division, belief in the irrational, prescribed wonder, inane myths, tribalism, importance attached to the trivial etc.
The sooner they're all discarded, the bloody better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2014, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,038 posts, read 4,202,918 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
But the bible ordered it. When did it change, and don't tell me the 'Jesus fulfilled' story. There is nothing in the gospels that changes the OT directives.

Then the question becomes, are the faithful picking and choosing which part of the bible to follow.
It comes down to following God and not making the Bible your God. Bible-only Christians don't like to admit it, but there's all sorts of things they have changed in their Christian practices, not because the Bible told them to, but because the Holy Spirit overrode the Bible. So many Christians can't accept that the Bible isn't perfect, yet they believe and do things that prove that deep down they concur with the imperfection of the Bible. In truth, the Bible contains a lot of barbaric direction from God. Perhaps this was because it was a barbaric time in human history. Perhaps that's the way the Israelites filtered God's message. Perhaps they were being led based on long established norms that already existed and God chooses to move the needle gradually in the right direction since it won't move at all otherwise. Lots of possibilities. In the end, there's a great deal of the Old Testament that is relevant now and there is a great deal that deserves to be ignored.

But to your points: The Bible does not order men to rape women for daring to show themselves in public. The Bible does not pronounce the death penalty on the victim of rape. The Bible does not order the the murder of assault, rape and murder of innocent people as a proxy for somebody thousands of miles away who dared to insult their religion. I am unaware of the Bible permitting marital rape.

What changed from Old Testament to New Testament? With nothing more than the Bible as our guide, we know almost nothing. We know that Gentiles didn't have to be circumcised. We don't know much beyond that. The Bible utterly fails to tell us clearly and completely what parts of the Law of Moses are still in effect and which are not.

Quote:
BTW, not all Muslims do what is described in both the OT and the koran either.
Many ways to take that statement. I'm going to go with your implication that the Bible and Qu'ran actually teach people to commit rape, murder, etc. and that you're saying that not all Muslims do those sorts of things. I get that.

It's the good ole "peaceful majority" schpeel and if you've read my response you know I've already addressed that. Yes the majority of Muslims in this world are good and decent people. Unfortunately for the peaceful majority and the entire non-Muslim world, the peaceful majority tends to stand by and do nothing but watch as Islam's reputation is dragged through the mud. The Iraqi defense forces fold like a lawn chair in the face of ISIS with great regularity. That's symptomatic of the fact that the good majority in Islam apparently doesn't care enough to stand and fight for Islam's honor. They run away. They join with ISIS when things start to get difficult. They're cowards. They don't care enough therefore they do as little as possible. This makes them complicit in the horrific crimes committed by Muslim extremists. The good Muslims of Egypt apparently can't be bothered to defend women from being publicly raped.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

The peaceful and good majority of Muslims have gotten awfully good at doing nothing. ISIS would have been crushed before it even started if this were not the case.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2014, 01:08 AM
 
116 posts, read 67,458 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
I'm no communist, but in terms of progress, development, the position of women etc. the Soviets were infinitely preferable (as per Afghanistan) to the Taliban any day. The same re Saddam, as much of a tyrant as he was, as an essentially secular dictator the position of women was far more equitable than under the yoke of religion. There were considerably more mixed marriages (Sunni/Shia) with relatively little mind to the same. After the calamitous Iraq invasion many of those relationships fell apart after the old schisms reopened. There's religion for you.

For all of the follies of the West, where is it that most Muslims - if given the chance want to live? The US, Canada, UK, Australia, France, Denmark, Germany etc. Why? Because in spite of their failings - life is far more equitable, more advanced, more developed, more enlightened, holds greater hope of progressing the human condition - with all its fits and starts and inexactitude - forward. What in fact has Islam done lately, apart from rage? And how could it do otherwise? It's merely reactive, moribund, bound to a past (without benefit of accumulated knowledge in between).
If you like foreign occupation so much---perhaps you should invite the Soviets to occupy the U.S.? The Afghan people prefer to be masters of their own destiny...so they fought the Soviet Occupation...and the U.S. was very happy to train, arm, and finance the extremists Taliban.....NOT because it believed in freedom for the people of Afghanistan....but because the U.S. wanted a proxy war with the Soviets!!. Then these mad dog extremists turn on the U.S. when it tries to occupy their country and these "freedom fighters " become "terrorists!!!....Meanwhile, instead of holding the country churning out these extremists accountable,---Saudi Arabia---the U.S. safeguards its interests...so that extremism is exported elsewhere.....Not to mention, Saddam Hussain was also America's "Best friend" when he was gassing his own people with American weapons and sending hundreds of young men to their deaths in a meaningless battle with Iran!!! Then when he wakes up from his own insanity----America paints him as a terrorist---invades his country and kills thousands of civilians, plunging the country into pain and misery. Americans use depleted uranium weapons causing babies to be born with deformities and leukemia, they disband 500,000 state employees such as doctors, nurses and other vital people that are needed to run the countries public works and security and safety. But that is not the end...NO...America continues to plunge the region into chaos and bloodshed......

and then you wonder why people are fleeing the region?.....they are fleeing because countries such as the U.S., Canada, U.K. are feeling guilty about the horrors they have caused and are giving asylum (visa) to the refugees they have created. But the vast numbers of people are still living in a destroyed region.

Rage?---For generations the people of the Middle East---not just the Muslims---have striven for change...for prosperity, freedom, and equality,....but all efforts have been crushed by America and its allies because THEY wanted to live in luxury and comfort at the expense of other nations and peoples...so they installed their corrupt proxy dictators who allowed them to steal and plunder their country so that the people of the West could have luxury---while others fell into poverty. And protests for change only led to imprisonment, torture and/or death. It is more of a wonder why the region did not explode earlier!!!

Follies of the West?---I,m afraid that is far too mild a term for the complete moral bankrupty and utter lack of restraint that the "West" exemplifies for the rest of us who are "Non-Western".

Yes---the "West" has done grand by its "own" people----but what has it done for the rest of humanity? except to bring pain, harm, war, oppression, poverty, corruption, injustice........and such.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2014, 03:42 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,503,833 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
If you like foreign occupation so much---perhaps you should invite the Soviets to occupy the U.S.? The Afghan people prefer to be masters of their own destiny...so they fought the Soviet Occupation...and the U.S. was very happy to train, arm, and finance the extremists Taliban.....NOT because it believed in freedom for the people of Afghanistan....but because the U.S. wanted a proxy war with the Soviets!!. Then these mad dog extremists turn on the U.S. when it tries to occupy their country and these "freedom fighters " become "terrorists!!!....Meanwhile, instead of holding the country churning out these extremists accountable,---Saudi Arabia---the U.S. safeguards its interests...so that extremism is exported elsewhere.....Not to mention, Saddam Hussain was also America's "Best friend" when he was gassing his own people with American weapons and sending hundreds of young men to their deaths in a meaningless battle with Iran!!! Then when he wakes up from his own insanity----America paints him as a terrorist---invades his country and kills thousands of civilians, plunging the country into pain and misery. Americans use depleted uranium weapons causing babies to be born with deformities and leukemia, they disband 500,000 state employees such as doctors, nurses and other vital people that are needed to run the countries public works and security and safety. But that is not the end...NO...America continues to plunge the region into chaos and bloodshed......

and then you wonder why people are fleeing the region?.....they are fleeing because countries such as the U.S., Canada, U.K. are feeling guilty about the horrors they have caused and are giving asylum (visa) to the refugees they have created. But the vast numbers of people are still living in a destroyed region.

Rage?---For generations the people of the Middle East---not just the Muslims---have striven for change...for prosperity, freedom, and equality,....but all efforts have been crushed by America and its allies because THEY wanted to live in luxury and comfort at the expense of other nations and peoples...so they installed their corrupt proxy dictators who allowed them to steal and plunder their country so that the people of the West could have luxury---while others fell into poverty. And protests for change only led to imprisonment, torture and/or death. It is more of a wonder why the region did not explode earlier!!!

Follies of the West?---I,m afraid that is far too mild a term for the complete moral bankrupty and utter lack of restraint that the "West" exemplifies for the rest of us who are "Non-Western".

Yes---the "West" has done grand by its "own" people----but what has it done for the rest of humanity? except to bring pain, harm, war, oppression, poverty, corruption, injustice........and such.....
The West has done plenty of wrong - e.g. no question the Iraq invasion was despicable and the level of hypocrisy immense - it was arguably America's worst foreign policy mistake. I merely observed that many Muslims would rather live in the West than in their own countries - not solely because they've been displaced by iniquitous imperialism, but because the freedoms (yes, I know it can come across as trite) afforded there are seen as offering more developmental possibility. My contention is that religion, in this case Islam, holds people back. In terms of relevance - being a viable counter to the West, Nasser's Arab Nationalism of fifty years ago had far more to offer than the 7th century religion touted by so many now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2014, 10:22 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,092,389 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
.......
and then you wonder why people are fleeing the region?.....they are fleeing because countries such as the U.S., Canada, U.K. are feeling guilty about the horrors they have caused and are giving asylum (visa) to the refugees they have created. But the vast numbers of people are still living in a destroyed region......
The most erudite comment I can make on this is that involves Bovine Scatology. Canada and the UK have had very lax immigration policies, and as such, people from all sorts of 3rd world countries came in. It had nothing to do with guilt, especially since the vast number of those immigrants came in the 1980's and 1990's. But then, just like christians, muslims are pretty good at inventing their own version of history and excuses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2014, 07:42 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,458 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
The West has done plenty of wrong - e.g. no question the Iraq invasion was despicable and the level of hypocrisy immense - it was arguably America's worst foreign policy mistake. I merely observed that many Muslims would rather live in the West than in their own countries - not solely because they've been displaced by iniquitous imperialism, but because the freedoms (yes, I know it can come across as trite) afforded there are seen as offering more developmental possibility. My contention is that religion, in this case Islam, holds people back. In terms of relevance - being a viable counter to the West, Nasser's Arab Nationalism of fifty years ago had far more to offer than the 7th century religion touted by so many now.

The lack of freedom in the Middle East is not because of religion---both Muslims and Christians of the Middle East are in the "same boat" ---and it matters not that the dictator is an Islamist or a Secularist or whatever because Imperialism does not want to give autonomy to the region. That is why there is no freedom.

IMO, Islam promotes respect based on equality (all humanity is of equivalent human value), Justice tempered with Compassion and Mercy, and Reciprocity and Brotherhood among humanity. It also restrains excesses of humanity that lead to oppression, injustice, harm, arrogance...etc. Restraints (holding back) on excesses of human behavior leads to civility and a civilization based on high civility is more conducive to peace and liberty.
So, if we presume the West has a problem with unrestrained greed, an obsession with accumulating power and wealth, and an utter disregard for the rights and aspirations of the rest of their brothers in humanity....then I would say Islam is a very viable counter to the West. (However, I do not believe in the "clash of civilizations" theory myself....I think human diversity is important for human progress and having many ways of thinking and approaching life is best for humanity)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2014, 07:50 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,827 times
Reputation: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
The lack of freedom in the Middle East is not because of religion---both Muslims and Christians of the Middle East are in the "same boat" ---and it matters not that the dictator is an Islamist or a Secularist or whatever because Imperialism does not want to give autonomy to the region. That is why there is no freedom.

IMO, Islam promotes respect based on equality (all humanity is of equivalent human value), Justice tempered with Compassion and Mercy, and Reciprocity and Brotherhood among humanity. It also restrains excesses of humanity that lead to oppression, injustice, harm, arrogance...etc. Restraints (holding back) on excesses of human behavior leads to civility and a civilization based on high civility is more conducive to peace and liberty.
So, if we presume the West has a problem with unrestrained greed, an obsession with accumulating power and wealth, and an utter disregard for the rights and aspirations of the rest of their brothers in humanity....then I would say Islam is a very viable counter to the West. (However, I do not believe in the "clash of civilizations" theory myself....I think human diversity is important for human progress and having many ways of thinking and approaching life is best for humanity)
I am not sure what brand of Islam you are referring to, but we are speaking of the one that has been around for about 1200 to 1400 years, depending on how you calculate it.

And this one, has very restricted freedoms, and even less for women.
You are to submit to your leader, and if you get out of line you will be killed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2014, 08:07 PM
 
116 posts, read 67,458 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
I am not sure what brand of Islam you are referring to, but we are speaking of the one that has been around for about 1200 to 1400 years, depending on how you calculate it.

And this one, has very restricted freedoms, and even less for women.
You are to submit to your leader, and if you get out of line you will be killed.
I am not sure what brand of Islam YOU are referring to, but I am speaking of the Islam that I practice and live by. That Islam is about submitting to God so that we may promote the inherent goodness that humanity was created with (Fitra).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2014, 08:11 PM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,083,827 times
Reputation: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
I am not sure what brand of Islam YOU are referring to, but I am speaking of the Islam that I practice and live by. That Islam is about submitting to God so that we may promote the inherent goodness that humanity was created with (Fitra).
So I have no idea which one that is.

I am referring to the one documented in the Qur'an and sunnah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top