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Old 03-16-2015, 06:27 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
On a personal basis I do not support the death penalty for any reason.

But, if the apostasy does entail treason against the nation, which is a requirement to prove apostasy, I do not have any alternate punishment I can offer. Treason is punishable by death in virtually every Nation. Just because I oppose capital punishment is not a valid reason to abolish it (About halt the Islamic Nations have outlawed the death penalty) For a list of nations that have abolished the death penalty see: The Death Penalty Worldwide

In the Hanafi Madhab the Judge has an obligation to find reason to dismiss the charges, if he can not do so he has the obligation to find reason to reduce the charges to the minmaum possible and if the accused is found guilty the judge has the responsibility to pronounce the lightest punishment permissable.

I can not think of which one but one Hanafi scholar made the statement that if a Judge executes more than one person, during his career, he has abused his office.
So how do you reconcile your personal conviction with regards to the death penalty versus that of your religion? Religions are absolute in their pronouncements, not leaving much to individual thought.

 
Old 03-16-2015, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
So how do you reconcile your personal conviction with regards to the death penalty versus that of your religion? Religions are absolute in their pronouncements, not leaving much to individual thought.
I see no need to compromise my own feelings.

No different between my having objections to the death penalty and still living in the USA, a Nation that has it.

I do not see where my personal likes and dislikes would make something wrong or right.
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Old 03-17-2015, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
First one must understand what is meant by apostasy and what is the proof of apostasy. While the 4 Madhabs do carry the the death penalty for apostasy, it should be noted that under the Hanafi Madhab no accused apostate has ever met the proof for apostasy. Apostasy inolves not just leaving Islam but also committing an act of treason against the Islamic Nation. Under all for Madhabs the act of trason must be proven


From your link
Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyāma form the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason.

Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it is indeed a major fitna. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidād.

It must be emphasized that the irtidād that we are discussing here involves open rejection, without any force and with full realization of what one's statements or actions imply. If a Muslim has a genuine doubt on an Islamic matter, that process of doubting does not automatically classify him as a murtad.

As long as he is still in state of doubt, the punishment of irtidād is suspended.6 A murtad must fully realize the implications of his open rejection and what it means--casting doubt on the truth and honesty of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Messenger of God.

The punishment prescribed by the shari`ah for apostasy is death.

Even the terms used by the shari`ah for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli.

(1) "Murtad Fitri" means a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. "Fitrah" means creation. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostate from the faith in which he was born.
(2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam. Milli is from millat which means religion. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person has apostated from his religion and the Muslim community.

In the first case, the apostasy is like the treason against God; whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like the treason against the Muslim community
. Probably, that is why the Sh`iah jurisprudence deals with these two kinds of murtads differently:

• A former kāfir who became a Muslim and then apostates (murtad milli), he is given a second chance: if he repents, then he is not to be killed; but if he does not repent, then he is to be killed.

• But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (murtad fitri), he is to be killed even if he repents. It is important to understand that in case a murtad fitri repents, Allāh may accept his repentance and he may be forgiven in the hereafter, but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.7

This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.

In writings of some of the Sh`iah jurists, one gets the sense that the punishment of murtad is to be implemented onlyā in dāru 'l-Islām (i.e., the Muslim world), and that if the murtad flees todāru 'l-kufr (i.e., the abode of kufr), then he is not to be pursued.8

woodrow in your religion apostasy itself is the "act of treason". its just insane, dude.

anyway its proof that violence is indeed a part of Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If it is they are in error as physical defense is to be used only in the event of a physical attack

many muslims are blaming the west for killing muslims. india killed muslims. china killed muslims. russia killed muslims.

shias killed muslims.

christians killed muslims.

buddhists killed muslims.

hindus killed muslims.


so now what? violent jihad against those people is actually valid?


prescribing violence in religion is really bad idea.
 
Old 03-17-2015, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
woodrow in your religion apostasy itself is the "act of treason". its just insane, dude.

anyway its proof that violence is indeed a part of Islam.




many muslims are blaming the west for killing muslims. india killed muslims. china killed muslims. russia killed muslims.

shias killed muslims.

christians killed muslims.

buddhists killed muslims.

hindus killed muslims.


so now what? violent jihad against those people is actually valid?


prescribing violence in religion is really bad idea.
You and I are reading the same things and coming to different conclusions.
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Old 03-17-2015, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You and I are reading the same things and coming to different conclusions.
my conclusion reflects the reality of things.


"treason" is really just an excuse for killing ex-muslims.
 
Old 03-17-2015, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,984 times
Reputation: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You and I are reading the same things and coming to different conclusions.
my conclusion reflects the reality of things.


"treason" is really just an excuse for killing ex-muslims.
no other religion thinks like that.

youre a smart guy, woodrow. please stop associating 'treason' with religion. its just....



omg
 
Old 03-17-2015, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
my conclusion reflects the reality of things.


"treason" is really just an excuse for killing ex-muslims.
no other religion thinks like that.

youre a smart guy, woodrow. please stop associating 'treason' with religion. its just....



omg

This is why it is important to learn where, whens and whys of each Surat along with the the opinions of scholars.

When the revelations first came that Apostates were to be killed, a state of war existed.
One can not think of nation as nations now exist, at the time of the Qur'an the Arabian peninsula was not a nation there were several city-states. In the case of the largest city Mecca it was more like neighborhood-states.

The city-states were basically theocracies or in the case of Mecca several theocracies in close proximity.

When Islam starting becoming a viable entity there were wars. It soon became common for non-Muslims to claim conversion to Islam, but in fact they were spies, etc fighting against Islam from within. Apostasy in terms of the era is more in lines with our concept of treason, not just simply converting to another religion.

The 4 madhabs also continue this view that proof of apostasy requires proof of treason. Very few people have ever been convicted of Apostasy following the 4 Madhabs.

Yes some nations do have apostasy as a state law and have had convictions, but that is state law not the following of any madhab. Yes they call it Sharia, but calling something Sharia does not make it Sharia. To be Sharia it must be in accordance with one of the 4 Madhabs.
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Old 03-17-2015, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The 4 madhabs also continue this view that proof of apostasy requires proof of treason.

You do know that muslims have a different definition of "Treason", right?
In Islam, the concept of treason is not limited to political and military aspects; it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur'ān occupy the highest positions.

Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyāmaform the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason.
Apostacy in Islam | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org




so what is the "act of treason"? open rejection of islamic beliefs.


utterly crazy and unfair, dude.
 
Old 03-17-2015, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
You do know that muslims have a different definition of "Treason", right?
In Islam, the concept of treason is not limited to political and military aspects; it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur'ān occupy the highest positions.

Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyāmaform the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason.
Apostacy in Islam | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org




so what is the "act of treason"? open rejection of islamic beliefs.


utterly crazy and unfair, dude.
It only makes sense in the context of a theocracy, which existed at the time the Qur;an was revealed. There was no separation the religious laws and the State laws were the same.

One reason the madhabs include a clause
Quote:
The Quran and Sunnah however did not offer the solution to every specific case that ever came before the community. The jurists in that case had recourse to such legal methods as Ijma (consensus) and Qiyas (analogical deduction). Ijma refers to the process of obtaining consensus regarding a particular legal problem among the Companions, their successors or all the mujtahids of any one of the future generations.
An Introduction to Islamic Jurisprudence with Special Reference to the Hanafi School of Law

Which allows for a level of flexibility resulting from cultural and constitutional differences.
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Old 03-17-2015, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 351,984 times
Reputation: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It only makes sense in the context of a theocracy, which existed at the time the Qur;an was revealed. There was no separation the religious laws and the State laws were the same.

One reason the madhabs include a clause


An Introduction to Islamic Jurisprudence with Special Reference to the Hanafi School of Law

Which allows for a level of flexibility resulting from cultural and constitutional differences.

Tibet was a theocracy with a small population of christians and muslims. Does it make sense if they killed those buddhists who convert to another religion?

No, that only "makes sense" to an extremist. Otherwise its a completely unjust form of religious violence.
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