U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-27-2015, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 352,105 times
Reputation: 152

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What I think is the hardest thing for non-Muslim to understand about Islam, is our self responsibility instead of following earthly religious leaders.

While I am using the word "We" my views are my own and how I personally find Islam to be.

so with all your "self responsibility" many muslims around the world are coming to the same conclusion as Tsarnaev.

that makes islam even worse.

 
Old 04-27-2015, 02:57 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,456 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
so with all your "self responsibility" many muslims around the world are coming to the same conclusion as Tsarnaev.

that makes islam even worse.
Many? Out of 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world what do you describe as "many" of us?
 
Old 04-27-2015, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
so with all your "self responsibility" many muslims around the world are coming to the same conclusion as Tsarnaev.

that makes islam even worse.
Islam is very individual. We each have the responsibility to learn what is right and what is wrong.
No human leader is going to tell us what is and what is not a sin.

We each can only give our own opinions and the reasons why we believe them to be true.
Islam is a personal agreement an individual makes with Allaah(swt) We do not even know who is a Muslim, we only know who claims to be a Muslim.

The bare minimum to be a Muslim, is to believe there is only one God(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is his messenger.
For many Muslims that is the only thing they know about Islam.

there is no required training to be a Muslim. there is no organization to join. there is no ritual that makes a person a Muslim. It is a personal commitment and desire to submit to Allaah(swt)

to be a Muslim is a life time of self searching, not listening to the teachings of some clergy or religious leader.

Yet many of us independently come to the same conclusions.

I can only state what I do to follow my chosen path
.
I read the Qur'an, I read the Tafsir of the Qur'an as seen by many different scholars, I study the Madhabs I read all the fatwas I can find, I question all opinions of Scholars and seek verification of their opinions. I study the Ahadith and do my best to become proficient in the Science of Ahadith.

It is a long road of self study and needs to be done without the interference of clergy. All about seeking and searching. All about learning what people I admire have found. It is not a static religion with a standardized Catechism
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 04-27-2015, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Canada
430 posts, read 352,105 times
Reputation: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Many? Out of 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world what do you describe as "many" of us?
many when compared to other religions.
 
Old 04-27-2015, 03:09 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,456 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophion View Post
many when compared to other religions.
Give me a number in regards to members of terrorist organizations and/or those who have actually taken up violence against civilians.

Further Christianity in the West has been supplanted by Secularism & Capitalism and the spread of Secularism & Capitalism, sometimes via very violent and deplorable means. The Korean War, Vietnam, the Iraq War and what became of the the Afghanistan War are all examples of this. These wars killed, maimed and harmed millions of civilians and were far worse on the civilian populations of such regions than any Islamist driven terrorist attacks.
 
Old 04-27-2015, 05:13 PM
 
Location: SoCal - Laguna Beach, CA
449 posts, read 617,613 times
Reputation: 1025
Radical Islam seems to be very good at distorting logic in order to maintain their strength. Muslim apologists always like to come forward to assure everyone that Islam is a peaceful religion when it obviously isn't. In a very recent poll of Saudi's in August 2014 show that a whopping 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."

Among the major religions, Islam is by far the most violent and has been willing to employ violence on a massive scale. The biggest difference between the majority of other religious groups and Islam is that even though those groups/religions had their different cultures and beliefs, they also desired to be part of the American culture. Groups celebrated their backgrounds but also worked towards making this country a better place. The Muslim ideology and values are in complete contrast to American values, there is very little if any blending of cultures and beliefs....nothing new here.


Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.


Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified.

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified


Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed


(2011): 49% of Muslim-Americans say they are "Muslim first" (26% say they are American first)
 
Old 04-27-2015, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha_Dog View Post
Radical Islam seems to be very good at distorting logic in order to maintain their strength. Muslim apologists always like to come forward to assure everyone that Islam is a peaceful religion when it obviously isn't. In a very recent poll of Saudi's in August 2014 show that a whopping 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."

Among the major religions, Islam is by far the most violent and has been willing to employ violence on a massive scale. The biggest difference between the majority of other religious groups and Islam is that even though those groups/religions had their different cultures and beliefs, they also desired to be part of the American culture. Groups celebrated their backgrounds but also worked towards making this country a better place. The Muslim ideology and values are in complete contrast to American values, there is very little if any blending of cultures and beliefs....nothing new here.


Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.


Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified.

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified


Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed


(2011): 49% of Muslim-Americans say they are "Muslim first" (26% say they are American first)
while polls are nice they are not capable of measuring anything except what they were designed to measure and will never be more accurate than the targeted audience.

For example I would say I am Muslim first and American second. That does not mean I would not support America as being Muslim obligates me to be supportive of the Nation I live in and to obey all laws of the land.

Palestinian Muslims are in a situation different from all other Muslims. They get very little support from other Muslims, they probably feel abandoned by Muslims and are fighting what they see as oppression, all alone.

this particular statement is quite interesting

Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified.

It looks very ominous but is saying nothing. Mo numbers are given etc that could be just 4 people It is possible only 3 people that feel strongly support suicide bombings while only one who is not supportive of Islam feels it is justified.


I am surprised this one is so low

Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed

as to leave Islam requires the committing of an act of treason against an Islamic Nation. simple apostasy is not what entails leaving Islam.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 04-28-2015, 12:40 AM
 
Location: SoCal - Laguna Beach, CA
449 posts, read 617,613 times
Reputation: 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
while polls are nice they are not capable of measuring anything except what they were designed to measure and will never be more accurate than the targeted audience.

For example I would say I am Muslim first and American second. That does not mean I would not support America as being Muslim obligates me to be supportive of the Nation I live in and to obey all laws of the land.
Surprised you would feel obligated. As you know all too well, Islam is fundamentally very different from Christianity and considering Islam’s appalling anti-Christian dogma it really should come as no surprise that 9 out of the 10 top countries cited for extreme Christian persecution are Muslim countries. It's also interesting that the "current" version of radical Islam is clearly based on terror, deception, and hate, turning a once prosperous regions into filthy backward third world nations of violent mass graveyards, especially in the 10/40 window. It seems the only goal of Islam is removal of Western values, Christianity, and ultimately freedom, which all run counter to their political ends. We know that not every Muslim holds extremist or Islamist beliefs, but enough do that we must criticize and severely punish those that who endorse violence and fundamentalist doctrines - what would motivate two violent Muslim sociopaths to blow up and kill innocent men, women, and children in Boston? Young, radicalized Muslims seem to love death the way we Americans love life, being taught that martyrdom for the cause of Allah guarantees Muslims men entry into the heavenly kingdom, well stocked with 70 virgins per Muslim Man - nice fairy tale.

I'm certain that even a Muslim like yourself would agree that Islam in the U.S. has contributed nothing of significance or value in making the US a better country to live in, no?
 
Old 04-28-2015, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha_Dog View Post
Surprised you would feel obligated. As you know all too well, Islam is fundamentally very different from Christianity and considering Islamís appalling anti-Christian dogma it really should come as no surprise that 9 out of the 10 top countries cited for extreme Christian persecution are Muslim countries. It's also interesting that the "current" version of radical Islam is clearly based on terror, deception, and hate, turning a once prosperous regions into filthy backward third world nations of violent mass graveyards, especially in the 10/40 window. It seems the only goal of Islam is removal of Western values, Christianity, and ultimately freedom, which all run counter to their political ends. We know that not every Muslim holds extremist or Islamist beliefs, but enough do that we must criticize and severely punish those that who endorse violence and fundamentalist doctrines - what would motivate two violent Muslim sociopaths to blow up and kill innocent men, women, and children in Boston? Young, radicalized Muslims seem to love death the way we Americans love life, being taught that martyrdom for the cause of Allah guarantees Muslims men entry into the heavenly kingdom, well stocked with 70 virgins per Muslim Man - nice fairy tale.

I'm certain that even a Muslim like yourself would agree that Islam in the U.S. has contributed nothing of significance or value in making the US a better country to live in, no?
Here first there has to be more clarification. I spent much more of my life as a Christian 45 years as a Christian vs 10 as a Muslim. I think I am some what familiar with the differences. Actually Islam and Christianity have many more similarities than differences,

The major difference being in regards to the Nature of Jesus(a.s.) Muslims are non-Trinitarian and while Jesus(a.s) is a very important aspect of Islam we do not worship him,we love Him deeply, Respect him highly and consider belief in his teachings as a requirement for all Muslims. Jesus(a.s.) is the second most named person in the Qur'an only His highly respected Mother Mary. is named more often in the Qur'an.

the major differences are in our organizational structure. There are no Ordained clergy in Islam. Yes we have Clergy, but they are lay persons with no required specialized training. every Muslim can be an Imam and at some point we all probably are.

Here in the US there are over 2300 Mosques but less than 700 Imams. Which means that when we attend a Mosque any one of us will assume the role of Imam for that particular Prayer. Usually the oldest person present will take the responsibility.

The horrors of 9/11 have greatly shaded America's view of Muslims. It even over shadows the fact that over 90% of all religious related crimes in the US have been done by Christians.

The Boston attack was horrific and carried out by 2 people. But it is quite small when compared to the Oklahoma City Federal Building attack which was carried out by 2 radicalized Christians.

It is also overlooked that Muslims have been in the US longer than Most Christian denominations. There have been Muslims here since the times of the earliest European explorers.

Yes it is true that 9 of the 10 most cited nations for Christian Persecution are Islamic nations. But numbers do not always tell the whole story Unless you have all the Numbers
Usint this Source
9 of 10 Worst Countries for Persecution of Christians Have 50% or Greater Muslim Populations | CNS News
first look at which countries they are:
Somalia
Iraq
Syria
Afghanistan
Sudan
Iran
Pakistan
Eritria
Nigeria

Outside of being Majority Muslim what else do they have in common? Since 9/11 they have had the bejabbers bombed out of them and the number of Muslim deaths are in the Millions. they are now very unstable nations in which the governments are in chaos. (Exception being Iran)

It is true they are nations that are very anti Christian, they also are not very safe Nations for Muslims. For the Most part they have fallen under the control of tyrants. that want to destroy all religion including Islam

Iran and Vatican City are the only 2 nations that are theocracies. Iran is virtually 100% 12er sect of Shi'a and the only Islamic Nation with a central religious leader the Ayatoullah they are far from being representative of Islam Because they do have a central religious Leader and do not have the same beliefs as Sunni, do not beleive the same pillars of Faith and have a different Shahadah, deny the 4 Madhabs, use different Ahadith have different prayer forms etc. very many Muslims do not believe they follow Islam. Sunni's form nearly 90% of the world's Muslims.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 04-28-2015, 03:24 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,456 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha_Dog View Post
Radical Islam seems to be very good at distorting logic in order to maintain their strength. Muslim apologists always like to come forward to assure everyone that Islam is a peaceful religion when it obviously isn't. In a very recent poll of Saudi's in August 2014 show that a whopping 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."

Among the major religions, Islam is by far the most violent and has been willing to employ violence on a massive scale. The biggest difference between the majority of other religious groups and Islam is that even though those groups/religions had their different cultures and beliefs, they also desired to be part of the American culture. Groups celebrated their backgrounds but also worked towards making this country a better place. The Muslim ideology and values are in complete contrast to American values, there is very little if any blending of cultures and beliefs....nothing new here.


Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.


Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified.

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified


Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed


(2011): 49% of Muslim-Americans say they are "Muslim first" (26% say they are American first)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha_Dog View Post
Surprised you would feel obligated. As you know all too well, Islam is fundamentally very different from Christianity and considering Islamís appalling anti-Christian dogma it really should come as no surprise that 9 out of the 10 top countries cited for extreme Christian persecution are Muslim countries. It's also interesting that the "current" version of radical Islam is clearly based on terror, deception, and hate, turning a once prosperous regions into filthy backward third world nations of violent mass graveyards, especially in the 10/40 window. It seems the only goal of Islam is removal of Western values, Christianity, and ultimately freedom, which all run counter to their political ends. We know that not every Muslim holds extremist or Islamist beliefs, but enough do that we must criticize and severely punish those that who endorse violence and fundamentalist doctrines - what would motivate two violent Muslim sociopaths to blow up and kill innocent men, women, and children in Boston? Young, radicalized Muslims seem to love death the way we Americans love life, being taught that martyrdom for the cause of Allah guarantees Muslims men entry into the heavenly kingdom, well stocked with 70 virgins per Muslim Man - nice fairy tale.

I'm certain that even a Muslim like yourself would agree that Islam in the U.S. has contributed nothing of significance or value in making the US a better country to live in, no?
There's a lot to answer here...but in regards to Palestinian Muslims that is a good example of when correlation does not equate to causation. Their support of suicide bombings is an extension of political grievances whereby they feel as though they've unjustly had land taken from them, democratic/political means have failed to bring them justice, they have no sound or viable military option and therefore resort to terrorism to settle their grievances. The act of suicide bombing is clearly stated to be forbidden by all reputable scholars, including very-very conservative scholars such as Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid here Ruling on blowing oneself up - islamqa.info ... Now some self-trained scholars may come about to find a justification/rationalization for suicide bombing but this is really no different than the Christian justification for slavery or the domination/forced conversion of the native peoples of the western world.

Since you brought up Muslim Americans and allude to their potential danger...according to a Gallup Poll 92% of American Muslims believe that attacks on civilians are never justified, compared to only 71% of Protestants and Catholics. Further 92% of American Muslims believe that American Muslims have no sympathy for Al-Qaeda or similar organizations...Most Muslim Americans See No Justification for Violence

Further according to this Pew Report, Muslim American support for extremism was and still remains negligible Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press

Now as a group they contribute to society in almost a lock-step parallel to the general American population. "The 2007 Pew survey found that Muslim Americans generally mirror the U.S. public in education and income levels, with immigrant Muslims slightly more affluent and better educated than native-born Muslims. Twenty-four percent of all Muslims and 29 percent of immigrant Muslims have college degrees, compared to 25 percent for the U.S. general population. Forty-one percent of all Muslim Americans and 45 percent of immigrant Muslims report annual household income levels of $50,000 or higher. This compares to the national average of 44 percent. Immigrant Muslims are well represented among higher-income earners, with 19 percent claiming annual household incomes of $100,000 or higher (compared to 16 percent for the Muslim population as a whole and 17 percent for the U.S. average). This is likely due to the strong concentration of Muslims in professional, managerial, and technical fields, especially in information technology, education, medicine, law, and the corporate world." Muslims in America ? A Statistical Portrait | Embassy of the United States Baghdad, Iraq What this shows is that immigrant Muslims actually out perform other Americans in regards to education and earnings potential...surely they contribute a lot to the society.

In regards to your statement regarding American values and beliefs, may you articulate that for us? What are American values, where did they come from and are they stagnant and defined? Can I buy the book on American values?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top