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Old 05-10-2015, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessxwrites89 View Post
Were you ever a teacher or professor? Woodrow, LI, you have wonderful posts and I agree with everything you have said. History, colonialism, the fall of empires, new regimes, etc. have all contributed to things. These things don't come out of thin air - it's a century (or more) in the making.
Thank you for the kind words, for the most part I have simply had the misfortune to live over 70 years with too much free time and the opportunity to do considerable traveling--using the word
misfortune was deliberate I often regret not having any stable roots in a single location.

I had a little teaching experience during my college and working years.
Although my working years were divided between self employment, State employment, Federal employment and a touch of teaching as a guest lecturer.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xircal View Post
That's all very well, but it only applies to women doesn't it? Or at least I've never seen men wearing a full length gown covering every part of their bodies including their eyes.
The required clothing standards for men and women are very similar.
The preferred clothing styles often are the result of the country of origin.
and yes in nations were the burka is customary the men dress almost identical.
one example
This is a man




neither of which is supported in the Quran or madhab
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Old 05-11-2015, 05:39 AM
 
622 posts, read 418,150 times
Reputation: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The required clothing standards for men and women are very similar.
The preferred clothing styles often are the result of the country of origin.
and yes in nations were the burka is customary the men dress almost identical.
one example
This is a man
neither of which is supported in the Quran or madhab
This video epitomises what is so very wrong with the treatment of Muslim women.

 
Old 05-11-2015, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xircal View Post
This video epitomises what is so very wrong with the treatment of Muslim women.

Some things I did not find in the video

What does she follow that is called Islam?

What nation is she from?

What is the Madhab of the Nation?

What is the fiqh of the Nation?
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:15 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xircal View Post
This video epitomises what is so very wrong with the treatment of Muslim women.

What this exhibits is that an individual had a hard time and wants to point that blame at the religion, instead of the people.

The Prophet Muhammad's (saw) wife Khadijah was an active entrepreneur, business woman and leader within their community. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) did house chores, cleaned his own clothes and allowed his wives access to his entire wealth. Islam came and ended the practice of female infanticide which was popular with the pagan Arabs at the time as they saw having a daughter as a curse. Further Islam came and gave women rights of inheritance, divorce, property, etc... All during a time when the Church was trying to decide whether or not a female was indeed a human or a spawn of the devil.

Further it's difficult to take this woman seriously in her arguments as she doesn't even have a pre-school level understanding of Islamic jurisprudence, fiqh, Quran, tafsir... Rather she extrapolates her personal experience with individuals as some sort of proof the religion is to blame, a religion which she doesn't know or understand.
 
Old 05-12-2015, 02:39 AM
 
622 posts, read 418,150 times
Reputation: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Some things I did not find in the video

What does she follow that is called Islam?

What nation is she from?

What is the Madhab of the Nation?

What is the fiqh of the Nation?
Google is your friend: Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 05-12-2015, 02:41 AM
 
622 posts, read 418,150 times
Reputation: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
What this exhibits is that an individual had a hard time and wants to point that blame at the religion, instead of the people.

The Prophet Muhammad's (saw) wife Khadijah was an active entrepreneur, business woman and leader within their community. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) did house chores, cleaned his own clothes and allowed his wives access to his entire wealth. Islam came and ended the practice of female infanticide which was popular with the pagan Arabs at the time as they saw having a daughter as a curse. Further Islam came and gave women rights of inheritance, divorce, property, etc... All during a time when the Church was trying to decide whether or not a female was indeed a human or a spawn of the devil.

Further it's difficult to take this woman seriously in her arguments as she doesn't even have a pre-school level understanding of Islamic jurisprudence, fiqh, Quran, tafsir... Rather she extrapolates her personal experience with individuals as some sort of proof the religion is to blame, a religion which she doesn't know or understand.
See post #266
 
Old 05-12-2015, 04:18 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xircal View Post
See post #266
Explains a lot.

She was a victim of political corruption as from the article:

Quote:
She was born as Ayaan Hirsi Magan in 1969[13] in Mogadishu, Somalia.[14] Her father, Hirsi Magan Isse, was a prominent member of the Somali Salvation Democratic Front and a leading figure in the Somalian Revolution. Shortly after she was born, her father was imprisoned owing to his opposition to the Siad Barre government.[15][16]
the fact she was forced to have female genital Mutilation (Forbidden in Islam) is significant to drive her against islam. It is like comparing Joseph Kony's "Lord's Resistance Army" to Christianity.

She like many Somali's was raised in a very brutal religion she was led to believe was islam but has very little relationship to Islam except in name.
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Old 06-08-2015, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Note the principles of the Bell Curve or Normal Curve.
By this principle, all human variables are normally distributed in a pattern like a bell.
For example sake, in term of human height at present, roughly there is a likelihood that 20% of matured adults have a height of 4.5 feet and lower, and 20% will be above 5.75 feet tall.
The rest of the 60% will have a height between 4.5 and 5.75 feet tall.

Similarly in terms of violence, we will have 20% with violence tendencies and 20% of pacifists on the other extreme. The other 60% will be average.

Note my view of the essence of Islam here:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/39945425-post62.html


I have read the Quran very extensively and have gone through many rounds of its 6236 verses.
What I noted is 55% of the verses contain antagonistic and evil elements against non-Muslims of which some are very aggressive and generate hatred toward the Kafir [infidels and non-Muslims]. There are over 300+ verses that are associated with war, aggression and violence on non-Muslims.
Bill Warner claim 60% of the Quran is antagonistic towards the infidels [Kafir, kuffar, non-Muslims]
http://www.politicalislam.com/wp-con...ical-Islam.pdf

The Quran exhorted Muslims to vie with one another to ensure the straightest path to heaven and eternal life, otherwise it is eternal hellfire to suffer eternal burning and torments. The texts of the Quran are immutable and thus has to be followed thoroughly and seriously without any change nor editing.

Now it is inevitable there are appx. 20% [principles of bell curve] of violent prone humans in any population. With 1.5 billion Muslims, that is 300 million!! around the world. To these 300 million people, the 55% of antagonistic elements and 300+ war laden verses are a feast, i.e. violence with the sanction of God. At the lowest say even if 0.1%, we still have 1.5 million violent prone Muslims and it took only 18+ to do a 911 and lone wolves are enough to create sufficient havoc.

The existential threat to comply with God's word or else be burnt in eternal hellfire generate very malignant compulsion in the 20% or 0.1% of evil prone Muslims to be literal with God's immutable command.


The Quran as-it-is [immutable] is thus a catalyst to trigger violence from some [ 1.5 to 300 millions] Muslims to commit evil and violence against non-Muslims to strive in the cause of Allah. The proof of this very evident with the existing number of evils committed by some Muslims all over the world at present. Note we are not talking of a pocketful of Muslims committing evil but there are many thousands out there with ISIS, Boko Haram and others all over the world.

The above are the grounds on why Islam per se is partly violent as it catalyze and inspire 'some' Muslims to be truer Muslims than others and acts on those prevalent antagonistic and violent prone verses they think will get them to heaven effectively or expeditiously.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-08-2015 at 11:21 PM..
 
Old 06-09-2015, 02:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the principles of the Bell Curve or Normal Curve.
By this principle, all human variables are normally distributed in a pattern like a bell.
For example sake, in term of human height at present, roughly there is a likelihood that 20% of matured adults have a height of 4.5 feet and lower, and 20% will be above 5.75 feet tall.
The rest of the 60% will have a height between 4.5 and 5.75 feet tall.

Similarly in terms of violence, we will have 20% with violence tendencies and 20% of pacifists on the other extreme. The other 60% will be average.

Note my view of the essence of Islam here:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/39945425-post62.html


I have read the Quran very extensively and have gone through many rounds of its 6236 verses.
What I noted is 55% of the verses contain antagonistic and evil elements against non-Muslims of which some are very aggressive and generate hatred toward the Kafir [infidels and non-Muslims]. There are over 300+ verses that are associated with war, aggression and violence on non-Muslims.
Bill Warner claim 60% of the Quran is antagonistic towards the infidels [Kafir, kuffar, non-Muslims]
http://www.politicalislam.com/wp-con...ical-Islam.pdf

The Quran exhorted Muslims to vie with one another to ensure the straightest path to heaven and eternal life, otherwise it is eternal hellfire to suffer eternal burning and torments. The texts of the Quran are immutable and thus has to be followed thoroughly and seriously without any change nor editing.

Now it is inevitable there are appx. 20% [principles of bell curve] of violent prone humans in any population. With 1.5 billion Muslims, that is 300 million!! around the world. To these 300 million people, the 55% of antagonistic elements and 300+ war laden verses are a feast, i.e. violence with the sanction of God. At the lowest say even if 0.1%, we still have 1.5 million violent prone Muslims and it took only 18+ to do a 911 and lone wolves are enough to create sufficient havoc.

The existential threat to comply with God's word or else be burnt in eternal hellfire generate very malignant compulsion in the 20% or 0.1% of evil prone Muslims to be literal with God's immutable command.


The Quran as-it-is [immutable] is thus a catalyst to trigger violence from some [ 1.5 to 300 millions] Muslims to commit evil and violence against non-Muslims to strive in the cause of Allah. The proof of this very evident with the existing number of evils committed by some Muslims all over the world at present. Note we are not talking of a pocketful of Muslims committing evil but there are many thousands out there with ISIS, Boko Haram and others all over the world.

The above are the grounds on why Islam per se is partly violent as it catalyze and inspire 'some' Muslims to be truer Muslims than others and acts on those prevalent antagonistic and violent prone verses they think will get them to heaven effectively or expeditiously.
There are several different topics here. A bit more than I can keep track of in one post.
The last 3 paragraphs are the only ones i feel confident of giving even a partial reply to:

Quote:
The existential threat to comply with God's word or else be burnt in eternal hellfire generate very malignant compulsion in the 20% or 0.1% of evil prone Muslims to be literal with God's immutable command.
except it fails to take into consideartion that we believe all who die as Muslims will reach heaven. We do believe we will be punished for our sins, but after the punishment we will reach Heaven. Very few sins will cause a muslim to spend eternity in hell, such as becoming an apostate, worshiping anyone insteaad of or in addition to Allaah(swt).


Quote:
The Quran as-it-is [immutable] is thus a catalyst to trigger violence from some [ 1.5 to 300 millions] Muslims to commit evil and violence against non-Muslims to strive in the cause of Allah. The proof of this very evident with the existing number of evils committed by some Muslims all over the world at present. Note we are not talking of a pocketful of Muslims committing evil but there are many thousands out there with ISIS, Boko Haram and others all over the world.
Poor comparission. You have about the same ratio of evil doers among all people. A very huge number of Americans are criminals. In fact the USA has the Highest number of incarcerated people in the world./
So far this year there have been over 1,000 shootings in Chicago alone.
While we do believe the Qur'an is the exact word of Allaah(swt) as individuals we do question as to what the words mean there are countless Tafsir and Fatwas explaining each and every ayyat. Very few if any have 100% consensus as to the meaning. But we do agree they are the exact word of Allaah(swt)

Even the shortest Surat--al Kauthar
All Muslims will agree that the exact words Allaah(swt) said are:
Inna aAAtaynaka alkawthara
Fasalli lirabbika wainhar
Inna shaniaka huwa alabtaru
There is no question, doubt or disagreement those are the exact words said.
Now as to what they mean, that is open to Opinion, Translation and interpretation.
Just looking at some English translations

108:1 (Asad) BEHOLD, We have bestowed upon thee good in abundance:
108:2 (Asad) hence, pray unto thy Sustainer [alone], and sacrifice [unto Him alone].
108:3 (Asad) Verily, he that hates thee has indeed been cut off [from all that is good]!

108:1 (Y. Ali) To thee have We granted the Fount (of Abundance).
108:2 (Y. Ali) Therefore to thy Lord turn in Prayer and Sacrifice.
108:3 (Y. Ali) For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off (from Future Hope).

108:1 (Picktall) Lo! We have given thee Abundance;
108:2 (Picktall) So pray unto they Lord, and sacrifice.
108:3 (Picktall) Lo! It is thy insulter (and not thou) who is without posterity.

we are not and can not be blind followers, each of us is obligated to evaluate all opinions and to always question. No Human has the right or ability to state his opinion/interpretation is the correct one. We need to ask and be shown why any person arrives at the interpretation he arrives at and to not agree unless we our self have found reason to believe it is true.




Quote:
The above are the grounds on why Islam per se is partly violent as it catalyze and inspire 'some' Muslims to be truer Muslims than others and acts on those prevalent antagonistic and violent prone verses they think will get them to heaven effectively or expeditiously.
Very few if any Muslims will consider any ayyat as being a command. Most of us to not see the Qur'an as being a book of commands, we see it as examples of hows and whys and the consequenses for our actions. It is a Revelation of Self responsibility and not blind obedience.

There is not a thing in the Qur'an that will get us into heaven. Only the Mercy and forgiveness of Allaah(swt) will do that. The Qur'an is a revelation of what is beyond this Dunya. The Sunnah, Fiqh, Ahadith and Madhabs are guides on how to stay on the Path revealed in the Qur'an.
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