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Old 06-09-2015, 08:00 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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After spending years researching Islam, I know that the Quran demands hate and violence and that according to the Islamic hadiths Muhammed did pretty much every evil in the book. I understand abrogation as it applies to the Quran, too.

Muslims give many excuses and rationalizations, but the ideology of Islam is what it is. And to be a Muslim means to SUBMIT to Islam.

I have 2 questions.

1. How can any good person CHOOSE to submit to an ideology that demands terrorism and hate and slaughtering non-Muslims and where the 'prophet' demanded murder and raped and sold women and owned and traded slaves and had sex with a little 9 year old child and pretty much committed every evil in the book? How can good choose evil?

2. (I'm basing this on an assumption that is held by all Muslims - that Allah exists.) Why didn't Allah punish Muhammed for murdering and raping and selling women and owning and trading slaves and for raping and hitting a child and torturing people, mass slaughter and being a terrorist? All those things are evil, but allah made this evil man his prophet and his example to muslims on how to behave!! Allah even encouraged these horrible acts!

Why did allah (the supposed CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!!!! THINK about that!) give Muslims one of the most evil men on earth to follow as a perfect example?

 
Old 06-09-2015, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
After spending years researching Islam, I know that the Quran demands hate and violence and that according to the Islamic hadiths Muhammed did pretty much every evil in the book. I understand abrogation as it applies to the Quran, too.

Muslims give many excuses and rationalizations, but the ideology of Islam is what it is. And to be a Muslim means to SUBMIT to Islam.

I have 2 questions.

1. How can any good person CHOOSE to submit to an ideology that demands terrorism and hate and slaughtering non-Muslims and where the 'prophet' demanded murder and raped and sold women and owned and traded slaves and had sex with a little 9 year old child and pretty much committed every evil in the book? How can good choose evil?

2. (I'm basing this on an assumption that is held by all Muslims - that Allah exists.) Why didn't Allah punish Muhammed for murdering and raping and selling women and owning and trading slaves and for raping and hitting a child and torturing people, mass slaughter and being a terrorist? All those things are evil, but allah made this evil man his prophet and his example to muslims on how to behave!! Allah even encouraged these horrible acts!

Why did allah (the supposed CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!!!! THINK about that!) give Muslims one of the most evil men on earth to follow as a perfect example?
Being a Revert to Islam I can only say After accepting Islam I got to know and understand a view of Islam and Muhammad(saws) non-Muslims do not seem to be aware of.

at the age of 45 I left Christianity and became an Atheist.

Then at the age of 65 accepted Jslam. Although I had studied Islam with a very negative view for Most of my life.

Up until the minute I accepted Islam I strongly believed what you wrote above. jn Questions 1 and 2 reflects almost exactly my feelings about Islam.

If you had asked me a minute before I accepted Islam, if I would ever accept it, you would have gotten a very emphatec no.

Western history has instilled a very erroneous image of Muhammad(saws) and Islam. I believed it.

It was a deep personal experience that allowed me to see the Beauty of Islam. I will not go into details as it would be meaningless unless a person experienced the same. But I have no obligation or need to convert anyone. that has to be a personal choice of each individual and based upon their own findings.

I can only state I am a Muslim and be receptive to answering any questions if ever asked,

Some other views of Muhammad(saws) that you generally do not find in western history.

Basically there is no physical evidence that non-Muslims would accept as proof of His existence. All we know about Muhammad(saws) is what is found in the Ahadith.

The Ahadith are not what Muhammad(saws) wrote, they are eye witness accounts of what was seen or heard said. to learn about Muhammad(saws) requires a study and understanding of the ahadith
What are some of the things the Ahadith tell us:

Quote:
10 Islamic Rules of War

1000gooddeeds November 20, 2012 Articles 3 Replies

Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:

1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)

2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)

3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)

4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)

5. “If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

6. “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)

7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)

8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)

9. “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).

10. “Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
How did he treat his wives and teach others to treat their wives?

Quote:
1. Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

“The most complete of the believers in faith, is the one with the best character. And the best of you are those who are best to their women.”(At-Tirmidhi and authenticated by Al-Albani)



2. Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

"The best among you is the best towards his wife, and I am the best of you to my wives." (Ibn Majah and authenticated by Al-Albani)



3. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said :

"A believer must not hate a believing woman (i.e., his wife); if he dislikes one of her traits he will be pleased with another." (Muslim)



4. `Abdullah ibn `Amr ibn Al-`As (May Allah be pleased with them) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

"The world is but a (quick passing) enjoyment; and the best enjoyment of the world is (to have) a pious wife." (Muslim)



Express Your Love

5. Anas (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was asked, 'O Messenger of Allah, which of the people is most beloved to you?'

He answered: "`A’ishah.”

He was asked, 'And among men?'

He said: 'Her father.' (Ibn Majah and authenticated by Al-Albani)



6. `A'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) said, “Never did I feel jealous of any of the wives of the Prophet except for Khadijah, although I have never seen her.”

She added, “When Allah's Messenger slaughtered a sheep, he said: Send it to the friends of Khadijah.”

One day `A'ishah mentioned Khadijah in a way that made the Prophet upset. He told `A’ishah, “I have been granted her love (by Allah)”.



Render Love into Deeds

7. `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) reported that the Messenger of Allah would give her a vessel to drink, when she was menstruating, then he would look for the spot where she had put her lips on and put his lips on the same spot. (An-Nasa’i and authenticated by Al-Albani)



8. Anas narrated that the Prophet had a Persian neighbor who was good in cooking soup. One day he prepared some soup and invited the Prophet to it. `A’ishah was present so the Prophet suggested to the neighbor that she should join them. The neighbor refused to include her in the invitation. The Prophet, therefore, declined the invitation.

The Persian repeated the exclusive invitation for the Prophet who, once again, declined the invitation.

In the third attempt, the Persian neighbor invited both the Prophet and his wife, `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her). Then, the Prophet accepted his invitation and went with `A’ishah to the man’s house. (Muslim)



9. Al-Aswad asked `A’ishah about what the Prophet used to do at home. She replied. "He used to serve his household but when it was time for the prayer, he would get up for prayer." (Al-Bukhari)



Have Fun with Her

10. `A’ishah reported that she accompanied the Prophet in a travel when she was still slim. The Prophet told people to move forward and then he asked `A’ishah to race with him. They had a race and `A’ishah won.

In a later travel, when `A’ishah had forgotten the race and had already gained weight, the Prophet told her to race with him again. She declined, “How can I race with you while I am in such a condition?” The Prophet insisted and they did have a race. The Prophet won this time. He laughed then and said, “tit for tat”. (Authenticated by Al-Albani)



11. `A’isha reported:

It was the day of `Eid and some Ethiopians were playing with shields and spears. Either I requested Allah's Messenger or he himself asked me whether I would like to see the display. I replied in the affirmative. Then he let me stand behind him; my cheek was touching his cheek and he was saying, "Carry on, O Bani Arfida (i.e., Ethiopians)!" When I got tired, he asked me if that was enough. I replied in the affirmative and he told me to leave. (Al-Bukhari)


How did Muhammad (saws) treat his enemies?

Quote:
In Makkah

During the first thirteen years of his life in Makkah, he and his followers faced much persecution. Muslims were not ordered by God to fight back due to the fact that they had no military strength yet due to the small following which gradually increased. It was only in Madinah when his following and military power rapidly grew that fighting to protect themselves and the new religion was allowed.

When the Prophet’s opponents greatly increased their persecution, his companions asked him to curse them. At this the Prophet replied:

"I have not been sent to lay a curse upon men but to be a blessing to them." (Muslim)

His opponents continued to treat him and his companions unjustly and cruelly, but he always prayed for them.

He once decided to personally visit the village of Ta'if, to the east of Makkah, to invite its inhabitants to Islam. The people rejected him, stoned him, ejected him, and made him to bleed. Angel Gabriel came to him and said:

"Allah has heard what your people say to you and how they reject you. He has ordered the angels of the mountains to obey whatever you tell them to do." The angel of the mountains called him, greeted him and said, "Send me to do what you wish. If you wish, I will crush them between the two mountains of Makkah."

The Prophet said:

"Rather, I hope that Allah will bring forth from their loins those who will worship Allah alone and not associate anything with Him." (Al-Bukhari)
The Prophet did not react and stayed in that position. His daughter, Fatimah, rushed to take the filth off his back

In the early Makkan period when the enemies of the new religion far exceeded the Prophet’s companions in number, it often happened that when the Prophet would stand to pray, his foes would come near him and whistle and clap in order to disturb him, but the Prophet would not even once show his anger at such acts. He always opted for the policy of tolerance and avoidance of confrontation.

In one instance when the Prophet was praying at the Ka’bah while his enemies were watching his every move and action, one of his adversaries put on his back the intestine of a slaughtered camel during his prostration. The Prophet did not react and stayed in that position. His daughter, Fatimah, rushed to take the filth off his back and cleaned him up.

In Madinah

Later, when Prophet Muhammad and many of his companions migrated to Madinah, again his great character in dealing with his companions and enemies was further manifested.

In Madinah, the Muslims were in the process of establishing the new Islamic state. Yet, their enemies in Makkah did not spare much time to wage war against them and pursue them even in Madinah.

In the battle of Uhud, when his Makkan enemies attacked the Muslims, Prophet Muhammad suffered head injury and his front teeth got smashed. When the blood started to seep from his head, he swabbed it saying:

"If a drop of my blood fell on the earth, those infidels will be destroyed by Allah." Umar told him, O Messenger of Allah, Curse them! The prophet replied: "I wasn't sent (by Allah) to curse. I was sent as a mercy." Then he said: "O Allah, Guide my people!" (Authenticated by Al-Albani)

God confirms his blessed character by saying:

{And We have not sent you forth but as a mercy to mankind.} (Al-Anbiya’ 21:107)

The Prophet once said:

"A true believer is one with whom others feel secure." (Al-Bukhari)

He manifested these words with action and was not fast to revenge or rebuke a wrong doer.

A Bedouin once entered the mosque and started to urinate in it. Mosques at that time had no walls and carpeted floors and the ceilings were palm leaves held up by palm stems. The people ran to (prevent and restrain) him. The Prophet said:

"Do not interrupt his urination (i.e. let him finish). Then the Prophet asked for a pitcher of water to be poured over the place of urine. (Al-Bukhari)

One of Jesus’ famous saying is: “Love your neighbor like yourself.” Prophet Muhammad complimented this by saying:

"By God, he is not a believer, by God, he is not a believer, by God, he is not a believer, with whom his neighbors are not secure." (Al-Bukhari)

This includes tolerance for actions they may do that is not pleasing to one.

It is reported that one of the Prophet’s neighbors was a Jew who hated the Prophet. Each day he would throw trash on his way. The prophet never rebuked him. One day, the Jew did not show up. The Prophet asked about him, and was told that he was sick. So, he went to visit him and inquire about his health with kindness. Upon seeing this, the Jew embraced Islam.

The enmity of his worst enemy toward his most beloved was also met with awesome goodness.

Hamza was among the Prophet’s most beloved uncles. During one of the battles, Hend, the wife of Abu Sufyan, the arch enemy of the Prophet, had ordered her slave to find Hamza and pierce him with his arrow. Upon seeing him dead, she rushed to his body and cut out his liver and started chewing on it while filled with rage. Upon the conquest of Makkah, the Prophet did not seek revenge on her and accepted her and her husband as new converts and gave them full protection.

Anas ibn Malik, who served the Prophet for ten years, said that the Prophet never rebuked him:

"When I did something, he never questioned my manner of doing it; and when I did not do something, he never questioned my failure to do it. He was the most good-natured of all men." (Al-Bukhari)

Such manners of tolerance gained him the respect even of his enemies, and his followers stood by him through all kinds of hardship and misfortune.
Despite all the concessions Prophet Muhammad made with the Makkans, the later violated the same treaty they signed earlier.

Although his worse enemies were the Makkan Arabs at the beginning, but in Madinah, the Jews did not spare any effort to conspire against him, even after treaties were signed with them. However, he tried to be as fair with them as possible and only waged war against them when they broke treaties which caused much loss of life of Muslims.

Once, when the Prophet was sitting at a place in Madinah, along with his companions, a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his companions remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied:

"Was he not a human being?" (Muslim)

Since Prophet Muhammad wished to avoid war at all costs, he strove to bring about a peace agreement between him and the Makkans. After great efforts on his part, the non-Muslims agreed to a ten-year peace treaty, which was drafted and signed at Al-Hudaybiyyah, a place outside Makkah.

During this important meeting, the Makkans insisted on a number of extremely provocative acts. For instance, the agreement mentioned the Prophet’s name as “Muhammad the Messenger of Allah.” They insisted to replace by “son of Abdullah.” The Prophet accepted peacefully and deleted the appellation. Similarly, they made the condition that if they could lay their hands on any Muslim they would make him a hostage, but if the Muslims succeeded in detaining any non-Muslim, they would have to set him free. The Prophet even relented on this point for establishment of peace in the region. He was clearly setting examples of fairness and tolerance while exposed to injustice and intolerance.

Despite all the concessions Prophet Muhammad made with the Makkans, the later violated the same treaty they signed earlier. It was then that the Prophet finally marched with his huge army to Makkah and without any resistance conquered the city which was once the abode of his worse enemies.
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Old 06-09-2015, 01:36 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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What you post is contradicted by many other verses.

Let's look at your first example.

“Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)

But.....

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)

So, it is no big deal if infidel women and children are slaughtered.

Also, it seems it is OK to mass rape women before selling them:

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

This is horrible. And there is some context to this. The mass rape happened after Muhammed and his gang slaughtered the fathers, sons and husbands of these women. Then, the women are raped and then sold or enslaved. This is terrible evil and Muhammed allowed and participated and Allah gave permission.

Another hadith talks about the men being ashamed to rape the women (and girls, I would bet) in front of their captive husbands. In that case Allah sent down that verse saying that women who their right hand possesses (captives) were OK to rape.

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Again, mass rape is sheer evil. I just don't know what else to say. And this is what Islam sets as an example for all Muslims. Today we see Muslims mass raping women in Europe.

Also, this, which gives permission to slaughter children that would not grow up to be Muslims:

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)

Further, Muhammed would ask his men to slaughter women and the elderly.

He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death. (Sahih Muslim 4209)

The slaughter that makes me the most sick is the one where Muhammed had Asma bint Marwan, mother of five, murdered in her bed with her children asleep around her.

When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people.
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 995

This is just so ugly. I know several people who left Islam over that one, and that Aisha business.

There is more, like the dancing girl, but this gives a sample of who Muhammed was.

And the elderly:
Muhammad ordered the death of an elderly man named Abu Afak for composing satirical poetry about Muhammad the slaughtering of people Muhammed had ordered.

The apostle said, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" Whereupon [a follower] went forth and killed him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 995).

The assassin is said to have mocked his victim by thrusting the knife into the body while saying, "take that, Abu Afak, in spite of your age." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 995)

So very ugly and hateful.

That he raped a little 9 year old girl is beyond the pale. What kind of man rapes a 4th grader?

Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old."

What really boggles my mind is that out of all the many hundreds of Muslims I have spoken to, not ONE will say that what Muhammed did was evil. Not even raping a child.
 
Old 06-09-2015, 02:06 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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Let's look at the second example:

2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Ka'b). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." (Bukhari 59:369)

“War is deceit” is found in Bukhari 52:269 and elsewhere.

The Quran tells what a good deceiver Allah is.

And the disbelievers deceived, but Allah deceived. And Allah is the best of deceivers. Quran 3:54

Are they then secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. Quran. 7:99

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme (Wamakaroo makran wamakarna makran), while they perceived not. Quran 27:50

Torture:

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

“…they brought them along and questioned them while the apostle was standing praying… The people were dismayed at their report…and so they beat them. When they were beaten soundly…” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 436)
These were two SLAVES that beaten.

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. (Sahih Muslim 4131 -this account is also confirmed by at least three other narrations).

Ouran 5:33 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment

When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head.” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 764)

Then Muhammed raped his wife. Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 517

Can even one Muslim stand up and say that Muhammed was evil to do these things?
 
Old 06-09-2015, 02:31 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
What you post is contradicted by many other verses.

Let's look at your first example.

“Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)

But.....

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)

So, it is no big deal if infidel women and children are slaughtered.
I humbly will ask you to research your interpretations of hadeeth and open your mind to the Muslim points of view from scholars whom have studied these hadeeth and Quran extensively...making a full-time career out of it. The problem with cherry-picking Quran and Hadeeth is that one must look at all of the Quran and Hadeeth relating to a particular issue in order to gather proper rulings and applicable knowledge from them. When you obtain information from either an Islamophobic website/person *or* ISIS/OBL/Al-Qaeda, one will find a very common theme between the two...they are untrained, non-scholars that cherry-pick in order to support their position.

I will not answer the entirety of your post as I don't have the time, but I will respond to the bolded piece above in order to show you an example of why cherry-picking this hadeeth as evidence that, "It's ok to kill all the non-believers" is a very-very dangerous mistake...

And I quote...

"Answered by Sheikh `Abd Allah al-Manî`î

Those who are not generally engaged in fighting – like women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, and others who do not participate in the fighting – are not to be killed. The Prophet (peace be upon him) prohibited this. His prohibition of the killing of women and children is clearly related by Ibn `Umar in Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3015) and Sahîh Muslim (1744).

The only exception to this is where such people participate directly in the fighting or are so intermixed with the fighters that it is impossible to separate them from those who are fighting. This exception is indicated by the hadîth of al-Sa`b b. Jathâmah. The Prophet (peace be upon him) was asked about the women and children of the polytheists who were among them and who would be injured if the enemy was attacked. He said: “They are of them.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3021) and Sahîh Muslim (1475)]

In short, non-Muslims living in Muslim lands, those who are under covenant, and those with whom we have peace cannot be attacked. As for those who are at war with us, the combatants may be fought and killed. Those who are not combatants cannot be killed or targeted for killing. The only way that they can be killed is as an unintentional consequence of fighting against the enemy combatants.

Indeed, the hadîth in question actually shows us that the general rule is not to kill non-combatants, even when they are present on the battlefield. The only exception is when the non-combatants are so mixed in with the fighters that it is impossible to fight against the combatants without the possibility of some non-combatants inadvertently being killed. This is only out of dire necessity.

Ibn Hajar writes in his commentary on this hadîth in Fath al-Bârî (6/146):

His statement “They are of them” means that they are construed as such under those circumstances. It does not mean that it is permissible to deliberately target them.

It is a matter of agreement among scholars that a person’s unbelief is not reason for that person to be killed. There is considerable evidence for this. Aside from the Prophet’s prohibition of killing non-combatants, we have where Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

And Allah knows best."
 
Old 06-09-2015, 03:02 PM
 
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I have studied Islam for years. And I have been through all the excuses, including the excuse of context. It's the number one excuse. The problem is that when I went back and read further for more context, the context made things worse, not better!

You say: "Those who are not generally engaged in fighting – like women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, and others who do not participate in the fighting – are not to be killed. The Prophet (peace be upon him) prohibited this."

Except I have proved several times over that this is not true.

You say: "Aside from the Prophet’s prohibition of killing non-combatants, we have where Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

Ah, but that was abrogated, wiped out, by the verse of the sword (Quran 9:5) and other verses like it.

It seems you do not understand abrogation as it relates to the Quran. If you do not, then you cannot understand Islam.

In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslims quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca and had no power. Those passages make Islam appear more peaceful and tolerant. It is deception. Muslims fail to tell gullible people that such verses were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages, written when Muhammed had gained power, that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance.

I wish abrogated verses could be taken from the Quran as they are often used to deceive, which is just wrong.

The truth is, the true context of Islam is that a very evil man made it up so that he could do horrible things. He invented a god that gave him permission to do the most evil things imaginable. Murder, rape, sex with a child, torture, incitement to terrorism....

And that brings us back to my two questions which I posted above:

1. How can any good person CHOOSE to submit to an ideology that demands terrorism and hate and slaughtering non-Muslims and where the 'prophet' demanded murder and raped and sold women and owned and traded slaves and had sex with a little 9 year old child and pretty much committed every evil in the book? How can good choose evil?

2. (I'm basing this on an assumption that is held by all Muslims - that Allah exists.) Why didn't Allah punish Muhammed for murdering and raping and selling women and owning and trading slaves and for raping and hitting a child and torturing people, mass slaughter and being a terrorist? All those things are evil, but allah made this evil man his prophet and his example to muslims on how to behave!! Allah even encouraged these horrible acts!

Why did allah (the supposed CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!!!! THINK about that!) give Muslims one of the most evil men on earth to follow as a perfect example?
 
Old 06-09-2015, 03:42 PM
 
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Here is another thing to think about:

The claim: "The most complete of the believers in faith, is the one with the best character. And the best of you are those who are best to their women.”(At-Tirmidhi and authenticated by Al-Albani)

I think that making your little child bride scrape gobs of semen off your clothes is pretty demeaning.
"Narrated 'Aisha: I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them." - Sahih Bukhari 1:4:233

Beating women isn't very nice.
Quran 4:34
But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them.

And hitting your little sex toy isn't nice, either:
"... He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: ... I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?..."" - Sahih Muslim 4:2127

Raping a little girl isn't good...it's pedophelia.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old...

Keeping woman as slaves, selling them and trading them like candy isn't being nice to them.
Tabari VIII:39 "Then the Messenger of Allah sent Sa'd bin Zayd with some of the Qurayza captives to Najd, and in exchange for them he purchased horses and arms."

Nor is mass raping them after slaughtering their fathers, sons and husbands:
"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

Tabari I:280 "Allah said, 'It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."

Even allah makes nasty comments about women.

And we can certainly look at reality for an example of what harm to women has been caused by Islam today.
 
Old 06-09-2015, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
What you post is contradicted by many other verses.

Let's look at your first example.

“Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)

But.....

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)

So, it is no big deal if infidel women and children are slaughtered..
The whole Hadith reads:
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:

Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."
It is quite interesting that the institution of Hima would be mentioned. a direct translation of Hima is private pasture. the context of this seems to indicate that it is something that only Allah(swt) and Muhammad(saws) could do. but there is no indication Muhammad every did kill any Children so essentially this hadith is stating they are not permitted to do so.
Some scholars interpret this as meaning if the killing is not deliberate there is no guilt.

But the general consensus of the Ulemah is the Killing of Children is to be avoided.





Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Also, it seems it is OK to mass rape women before selling them:

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

This is horrible. And there is some context to this. The mass rape happened after Muhammed and his gang slaughtered the fathers, sons and husbands of these women. Then, the women are raped and then sold or enslaved. This is terrible evil and Muhammed allowed and participated and Allah gave permission.

Another hadith talks about the men being ashamed to rape the women (and girls, I would bet) in front of their captive husbands. In that case Allah sent down that verse saying that women who their right hand possesses (captives) were OK to rape.

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Again, mass rape is sheer evil. I just don't know what else to say. And this is what Islam sets as an example for all Muslims. Today we see Muslims mass raping women in Europe..
Rape is wrong and forbidden. No where does that Hadith allow rape or. Other Hadith specify that sex has to be consensual and spell out who it is permitted to have sexual relations with. After the rules of marriage were revealed It becqame clear that Sex can only be between a man and woman that have signed a valid Nikkah (Marriage Contract".


Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Also, this, which gives permission to slaughter children that would not grow up to be Muslims:

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)..
Read carefully and slowly:
used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer
Essentially that is saying --Only if you know who will grow up to be a Muslim--something no man can know.
to be Muslim is between the individual and Allaah(swt) we do not know what is in a person's heart and thoughts. We do not know who is a Muslim, only those who claim to be Muslims. During Muslims lifetime virtually every Muslim was a convert from another religion, there were very few adults that had been raised Muslim.
The Qur'an was not completed until very near Muhammad(saws) death. The last Book (an-Nasr) was revealed just a month or 2 before Muhammad(saws) Death.



[quote=juju33312;39954220]Further, Muhammed would ask his men to slaughter women and the elderly.

He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death. (Sahih Muslim 4209)
Read the whole hadith

Book 017, Number 4209:

Abu Huraira and Zaid b Khalid al-Juhani reported that one of the desert tribes came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I beg of you in the name of Allah that you pronounce judgment about me according to the Book of Allah. The second claimant who was wiser than him said: Well, decide amongst us according to the Book of Allah, but permit me (to say something). Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Say. He said: My son was a servant in the house of this person and he committed adultery with his wife. I was informed that my son deserved stoning to death (as punishment for this offence). I gave one hundred goats and a slave girl as ransom for this. I asked the scholars (if this could serve as an expiation for this offence). They informed me that my son deserved one hundred lathes and exile for one year. and this woman deserved stoning (as she was married). Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life. I will decide between you according to the Book of Allah. The slave-girl and the goats should be given back, and your son is to be punished with one hundred lashes and exile for one year. And, O Unais (b. Zuhaq al-Aslami), go to this woman in the morning, and if she makes a confession, then stone her. He (the narrator) said: He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death.
This is no different from the punishment prescribed for Adultry in the Torah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The slaughter that makes me the most sick is the one where Muhammed had Asma bint Marwan, mother of five, murdered in her bed with her children asleep around her.

When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people.
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 995

This is just so ugly. I know several people who left Islam over that one, and that Aisha business.

There is more, like the dancing girl, but this gives a sample of who Muhammed was.

And the elderly:
Muhammad ordered the death of an elderly man named Abu Afak for composing satirical poetry about Muhammad the slaughtering of people Muhammed had ordered.

The apostle said, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" Whereupon [a follower] went forth and killed him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 995).

The assassin is said to have mocked his victim by thrusting the knife into the body while saying, "take that, Abu Afak, in spite of your age." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 995).
The Hisham reconstruction of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah is not scripture and very few events narrated in it have ever been verified. The Stories you quoted has no supporting evidence they ever occured.


[quote=juju33312;39954220]So very ugly and hateful.

That he raped a little 9 year old girl is beyond the pale. What kind of man rapes a 4th grader?

Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old."

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
What really boggles my mind is that out of all the many hundreds of Muslims I have spoken to, not ONE will say that what Muhammed did was evil. Not even raping a child.
while it is true Aisha did state that and it is by her word alone we know anything about her. Aisha is the 3rd most prolific Narrator of Ahadith and is recognized as being the first Islamic Scholar.

But it also has to be noted that several of her Ahadith contradict her age.
Aisha's Age
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Old 06-09-2015, 04:47 PM
 
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Again:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

This is a direct question and a direct response. "They are from them."

If you think about the meaning of this, it is so hateful. The lives of the women and children do not matter because they are from infidels. And this is the prophet of Islam speaking and setting an example!

Also, I posted a verse that gives permission to slaughter children that would not grow up to be Muslims. Terrible. I have recently seen photos of babies beheaded by Muslims and I think of this. It is heartbreaking.

Another example is the beheading of the boys with any pubic hair.
Book 38, Number 4390:
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubic) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

Boys as young as 13 or 14 were executed...and they were not in combat as there had been no combat! There's some context!

I should mention that while the men were being slaughtered one woman literally lost her mind as her family was being killed. Aisha later recounted:

Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2665: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: “ No woman of Banu [tribe] Qurayzah was killed except one. She was with me, talking and laughing on her back and belly (extremely), while the Apostle of Allah . . . was killing her people with the swords. Suddenly a man called her name: Where is so-and-so? . . . I asked: What is the matter with you? She said: I did a new act. [Aisha] said: The man took her and beheaded her. [Aisha] said: I will not forget that she was laughing extremely although she knew that she would be killed.”

Maybe she was lucky. The other women were passed out as booty and raped and enslaved or sold.

"This is no different from the punishment prescribed for Adultry in the Torah."

Never, ever try to excuse evil by pointing to other evil. Why do all Muslims do this? The discussion here is Islam and please...no red herrings. Can you say that Muhammed was evil for having this woman stoned to death? Yes or no.

There are many accounts in different hadiths of Muhammed raping Aisha when she was nine years old, and not all of them are from Aisha. There is no dispute about what Muhammed did and how old she was. Except apologetics who are at least secretly ashamed of Muhammed's actions with a child.

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

I have been through this hundreds of times with over 2,000 Muslims. I am so over this. I know what is in the Quran and hadiths. I am now seriously trying to figure out the answers to my questions.

Let me ask you a different question:
Do YOU think it was OK for Muhammed to have sex with a little 4th grader? Or can you say that he was evil to rape a child? Was Muhammed really a perfect example? Or one of the most evil men to walk the earth? Rape, murder. torture,, terrorism, theft, slavery, selling women, hitting a child, ordering women to be slaughtered....can you say that Muhammed was evil to do such things? Yes or no.
 
Old 06-09-2015, 05:16 PM
 
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PS: I looked briefly at your article on Aisha and it is the same old apologetic excuses. For example:

"According to a hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE."

She did not go to fight, she went as his little sex toy.

Also:
The women and young children went on the battlefield after the battle and gave water to the wounded Muslims and finished off the enemy wounded. al-Tabari vol.12 p.127,146. During the days of the battle, the women and children were there to dig graves for the dead. al-Tabari vol.12 p.107.

Every single excuse given has been shot down many times. All authentic sources of Aisha’s own testimony and that of others in the hadith confirm she was aged nine at the time Muhammed started raping her. Not one of the hadiths gives Aisha's age as anything else.

Can you say that Muhammed was evil to rape a little 9 year old child?

Last edited by juju33312; 06-09-2015 at 05:24 PM..
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