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Old 06-09-2015, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no defending needed. The Marriage between Muhammad(saws) was approved by Allaah(swt).

I may not understand why Allaah(swt) does as he does, but it is not for the creation to question the creator.
Wow! This is a very psychological issue of Confirmation Bias.
Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IMO, when a person converts to become a Muslim they [most] give up and lock up their faculty of rationality and reasoning, then resort to Confirmation Bias regardless of the fact and truth.

Here is an explanation by an ex Muslim Farhan Qureshi, a once very staunch sunni Muslim debater and psychology major on how he was bewitched by Confirmation Bias to defend his religion.
Note from 6:40 from the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml2NpnoLaak





This is from a Christian site, btw I am not promoting Christianity, rather what is relevant is the explanation of Confirmation Bias from personal experience of an ex-Muslim who is a psychology major.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-09-2015 at 10:38 PM..

 
Old 06-09-2015, 10:26 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,005 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
what is disturbing and dangerous about this....and you are defending it....is that it the child molester is blaming the little girl. The rapist is blaming the victim. "She asked for it" it is her fault. "she wanted it" it is her fault. any human being knows this is wrong, so the perpetrator goes to great lengths to justify it. Aisha the 6 year old wanted it. So of course it is OK for Muhammad the 53-year old to have his way.

That is what you are defending. Any person who defends this and justifies it, they have blood on their hands. Today. Now. In the year 2015. Not in ancient history. Now. Do you have any idea how offensive and violent and repulsive this attitude is? Is this how we want our children and grandchildren to be treated? That is the role model that Islam praises and emulates, adores and perpetuates.
Oh lookey here, the person whom is an absolute Nazi (pun intended) on the Judaism forum in regards to posters starting arguments and making accusations against Judaism is on the Islam forum committing the same crimes... Very hypocritical.

The story of Aisha (ra) is simple... The Prophet (saw) received divine inspiration to marry her, he went to the father (Abu Bakr (ra)) and asked for her... Not knowing her age, who she was or anything about her other than it was his companion's daughter. The father said she wasn't ready (as in hadn't reached the age of puberty and was not yet mentally mature). So the Prophet (saw) came back 3 years later and was informed that she had reached puberty and mental maturity and was ready for marriage. What do we gather from this story from a Shari'a perspective? A woman must have reached the age of puberty, be mentally mature and you must gain permission from the protective guardians of the woman.

What's further rather intriguing about a Jew posting such an inquiry is that if they read and cherry-picked their own Talmud, they'll find quite a bit of commentary on child-adult sexual relations that are quite graphic. Further interesting is that a supporter of Israel, a nation that was founded on using rape as a weapon to terrorize Palestinians in to leaving by the Haganah, is such an ardent feminist and makes accusations of rape where there was none. Quite convenient for this poster to be silent on such an issue in regards to the very State which is at the center of their existence, but when it comes to Islam not only do they bring up rape...they make accusations of rape where there was none in the first place. Hmm....
 
Old 06-09-2015, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
According to Aisha she asked Muhammad(saws) to marry her. She was bethroed to another and when she saw Muhammad(saws) she terminatd the engagement and married Muhammad(saws)

Such young marriages were the Norm at the time.

Yes today it would be an atrocity and highly illegal. But one needs to judge by the norms and customs of the era, not how we in this era feel.
It is true we need to take into account the norms, customs and contexts of whatever era in any hermeneutical analysis.

However, for any holy texts to be a platform for eternal universal theological principles for believers, they must at least pass the basic moral test. And since God is omnipotent, omniscience, the question is why he [it] did not do so in the holy texts. The reason is because the Quran and Hadiths are not from God but from humans with potentials for corruption to suit their personal interests.

Note the following from the Quran where Muhammad is supposed to be an exemplar to all Muslims;

“And indeed you (O Muhammad) are of an exalted standard of character.” (Qur’an 68: 4)
“Indeed in Allah’s Messenger (Muhammad) you have an excellent example to follow for him who hopes in (meeting with) Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much.” (Qur’an 33: 21)

When Muhammad is claimed to be an excellent example for mankind, to include a narration in the holy texts of his marriage to a 6 years old, consummated at 9 is very weird and present a very bad moral example for mankind to follow.

Fact is, as far as the hadiths are concern we should qualify them with the major [first] premise that Hadiths are merely 'Fish Tales' and Chinese Whispers.
Many of hadiths are an insult to Muhammad and the religion.
 
Old 06-10-2015, 12:18 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
"The story of Aisha (ra) is simple... The Prophet (saw) received divine inspiration to marry her,"

Wrong.
Sa‘id b. Yahya b. Sa‘id al-Umawi- his father- Muhammad b. ‘Amr- Yahya b. ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Hatib- ‘A’isha: When Khadijah died, Khawlah bt. Hakim b. Umayyah b. al-Awqas, wife of ‘Uthman b. Maz‘un, who was in Mecca, said [to the Messenger of God], "O Messenger of God, will you not marry?" He replied, "Whom?" "A maiden," she said, "if you like, or a non-maiden." He replied, "Who is the maiden?" "The daughter of the dearest creature of God to you," she answered, "‘A’ishah bt. Abi Bakr." He asked, "And who is the non-maiden?" "Sawdah bt. Zam‘ah b. Qays," she replied, "she has [long] believed in you and has followed you." [So the Prophet] asked her to go and propose to them on his behalf.

" he went to the father (Abu Bakr (ra)) and asked for her... Not knowing her age, who she was or anything about her other than it was his companion's daughter."

Prove that he did not know her age. How could he not know the age of the 'daughter of the dearest creature of God to him'?

And wrong, he did not go to the father.
She went to Abu Bakr’s house, where she found Umm Ruman, mother of ‘A’ishah, and said, "O Umm Ruman, what a good thing and a blessing has God brought to you!" She said, "What is that?" Khawlah replied, "The Messenger of God has sent me to ask for ‘A’ishah’s hand in marriage on his behalf." She answered, "I ask that you wait for Abu Bakr, for he should be on his way." When Abu Bakr came, Khawlah repeated what she had said. He replied, "She is [like] his brother’s daughter. Would she be appropriate for him?" When Khawlah returned to the Messenger of God and told him about it he said, "Go back to him and say that he is my brother in Islam and that I am his brother [in Islam], so his daughter is good for me." She came to Abu Bakr and told him what the Messenger of God had said. Then he asked her to wait until he returned.

"The father said she wasn't ready (as in hadn't reached the age of puberty and was not yet mentally mature)."

Wrong. Unless you can produce hadith that say this. I won't hold my breath.

Aisha was six years old when Muhammed 'married' her and nine when he started raping her. She had not reached puberty when Muhammed started raping her.

Read my posts. I have provided a ton of evidence.
 
Old 06-10-2015, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Actually it is a very simple argument to answer the OP, i.e.

1. Human variables are distributed on a continuum - Normal Curve.
2. A continuum from evil to good exists for all [incl. Muslims]
3. 60% of the verses in the Quran [core of Islam] contain various degrees of evil laden elements.
4. Evil prone Muslims [20% -300 million] are influenced by 60% of the evil verse to commit evil.
5. The above is why Islam [in part] is inherently so violent and evil [OP].

One stats [amongst many others] re incidents involving fatalities is the following [26,072];



The above refer to only incidents [not number of victims] that involved fatalities. There are many thousands of evil acts by Muslims without fatalities.

My point was not applicable to ALL Muslims. I understand all those who qualify as Muslims are promised heaven and those Muslims who sinned will be punished in transition to heaven.
My point was, some [20% =300 millions] Muslims who are zealous and evil prone will attempt to comply fully with the Quran to ensure they are very certain of going to heaven directly. Since the 60% of the verses of the Quran contain evil laden verses of various degrees, it is inevitable these zealous evil prone Muslims will end up committing evil acts against non-Muslims [infidels, Kuffar].
The proof and glaring evidence of this is supported by the statistics above.


This is the common tu quoque fallacy to deflect from the real issue and root causes. I hope you understand [philosophically] this is a serious intellectual infraction of rational thinking that must be avoided.
All evil acts must be condemned and dealt with, i.e. find the root causes and find preventive solutions.
The OP is specific to Islam & Violence.
It is only logically that I mentioned the terrible violence associated with Islam [part] and some Muslims.
Note my basic argument above to support this point and vice versa.


The biggest mistake is to believe the Quran is the exact word of Allah.
Since this is the major premise, the conclusions that follow are a mess. GIGO.
The Quran is most likely the work of humans, either Muhammad's own or compiled by a group of clergy for various religious or political purposes.

Nevertheless if we are to use any religious texts for religious [soteriological] purpose or otherwise, we need to understand its historical and other contexts.
What I read of the story behind verse 108 is.
This verse 108 was a self-consolation for Muhammad when he was called a 'tailless man' i.e. one having no sons by one al As Ibn Wail.
If any universal principles is to be extracted from this verse, it should at least pass the moral test. However 108:3 is a very childish counter and immoral which can only come from some low grade human and not a wise God.

The majority of Muslims would not have read the Quran and if they do read, they are not likely to understand it thoroughly. [that is a positive for humanity].
However, what my post is about is the concern of the critical few [note Pareto 80/20] rule. Note 'some,' if 20% is 300 millions!!!
What is most critical is the zealots and the clergy who spend their whole life reading the trilogy of Quran, Sira and Hadiths and naturally get brainwashed by the more than 55% of evil laden verses from that trilogy. They are the ones who worked up the vulnerable Muslims to a frenzy every Friday and elsewhere.

The Qur'an is the revelation and reminder for Muslims and obviously they have to be guided and obey whatever commands and proposition in the Quran communicated via the clergy or read directly by Muslims.
It is stated in the Quran that anyone who deny the revelations [obviously that include compliance with what is reveal] will go to hell or punished severely if they sinned.
One little point What evidence is there that the Muslim population forms a standard bell curve? While a Bell Curve is probably classical and ideal, very few statistical measurements will form a bell curve. Most statistical measurements are skewed.

another issue, who do you identify as Muslims? We have no means of identifying who is a Muslim we can only identify those that say they are Muslim. Among those who profess to be Muslim we have

Sunni
Shi'ite
NOI
Ahmadiyyat
Sufi
Ismaili
Deobandi
Wahabbi
and quite a few others.




there is considerable differences among each. Some are Qur'ani-- Qur'an only and reject hadith, madhabs and sunnah (Sunnah is comprised to a large extent of ahadith and madhabs)

Rouughly 80 t0 85% of all people who claim to be Muslim claim to be Sunni. Of them you have followers of one of the 4 Madhabs, those that follow Sufi,, Those that follow Salafi or Wahabbi, Those that are Qur'ani and others. about 30% of those claiming to be Sunni follow the Hanafi Madhab.

However since the authority for Hanafi are in order of importance:
Qur'an
Sunnah
consensus of the Ulemah
Necessity
Local custom

There will be differences among Hanafi from different Locations. .

Yes there are a large number (Although the percentage is low) of Muslims that are violent, Are the violent ones divided evenly among all flavors of Muslims or are some flavors more prone to violence?
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:54 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
How would Nazis be reflected on that bell curve?

A Muslim is someone who willingly submits to Islam.
Someone who hates Islam but pretends to be Muslim so they will not be slaughtered is not a Muslim.
Someone who has no idea what Islam is, no clue what is in the Quran or who Muhammed was is not a Muslim.
Holding an ideology is a matter of knowing about that ideology and choosing it willingly.

Islam is an evil ideology that promotes murder, rape, pedophilia, terrorism, slavery, hate, mass slaughter of non-Muslims, taking over the world and just plain stupidity. This is all in the Quran, the pile of crap that is the foundation of Islam.

A muslim does not have to perform the actual violence to be evil. Cheering on evil is evil. Financially supporting evil is evil. Standing by if needed to do evil is evil. Muslims are taught how to take over a country. They can't send a few Muslims to a country and be terrorists. That small number would be wiped out. It takes planning. It builds slowly and in secret. Deception plays a large part. Finding useful idiots, winning over the media and education system.....this:

FrontPage Magazine - What Islam Isn't

As I have said before, and Woodrow LI has now backed me up, Muslims will support every evil in the Quran: pedophilia, slaughter, rape, slavery, terrorism.....if it comes from allah, then it's A-OK no matter what it is.

"There is no defending needed. The Marriage between Muhammad(saws) was approved by Allaah(swt).
I may not understand why Allaah(swt) does as he does, but it is not for the creation to question the creator."


The utter lunacy of this whole thing is that, of course, there is no supernatural CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE hanging around telling Muslims to slaughter non-Muslims and how to deal with women on their menses and lying about where sperm comes from and demanding terrorism in his name and pumping up men with promises of orgies with virgins who do not eat or poop or pee and are FULL-BREASTED!!

The millions and millions slaughtered and raped and tortured in the name of islam....the root of it all is Muhammed, a horney and violent monster. How could this hateful scam have worked?
 
Old 06-10-2015, 09:48 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,005 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The story of Aisha (ra) is simple... The Prophet (saw) received divine inspiration to marry her,"

Wrong.
Sa‘id b. Yahya b. Sa‘id al-Umawi- his father- Muhammad b. ‘Amr- Yahya b. ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Hatib- ‘A’isha: When Khadijah died, Khawlah bt. Hakim b. Umayyah b. al-Awqas, wife of ‘Uthman b. Maz‘un, who was in Mecca, said [to the Messenger of God], "O Messenger of God, will you not marry?" He replied, "Whom?" "A maiden," she said, "if you like, or a non-maiden." He replied, "Who is the maiden?" "The daughter of the dearest creature of God to you," she answered, "‘A’ishah bt. Abi Bakr." He asked, "And who is the non-maiden?" "Sawdah bt. Zam‘ah b. Qays," she replied, "she has [long] believed in you and has followed you." [So the Prophet] asked her to go and propose to them on his behalf.

" he went to the father (Abu Bakr (ra)) and asked for her... Not knowing her age, who she was or anything about her other than it was his companion's daughter."

Prove that he did not know her age. How could he not know the age of the 'daughter of the dearest creature of God to him'?

And wrong, he did not go to the father.
She went to Abu Bakr’s house, where she found Umm Ruman, mother of ‘A’ishah, and said, "O Umm Ruman, what a good thing and a blessing has God brought to you!" She said, "What is that?" Khawlah replied, "The Messenger of God has sent me to ask for ‘A’ishah’s hand in marriage on his behalf." She answered, "I ask that you wait for Abu Bakr, for he should be on his way." When Abu Bakr came, Khawlah repeated what she had said. He replied, "She is [like] his brother’s daughter. Would she be appropriate for him?" When Khawlah returned to the Messenger of God and told him about it he said, "Go back to him and say that he is my brother in Islam and that I am his brother [in Islam], so his daughter is good for me." She came to Abu Bakr and told him what the Messenger of God had said. Then he asked her to wait until he returned.

"The father said she wasn't ready (as in hadn't reached the age of puberty and was not yet mentally mature)."

Wrong. Unless you can produce hadith that say this. I won't hold my breath.

Aisha was six years old when Muhammed 'married' her and nine when he started raping her. She had not reached puberty when Muhammed started raping her.

Read my posts. I have provided a ton of evidence.
You're comments reflect a lack of knowledge of Arab culture, the time & place of this marriage and you seem to get lost in technicalities. We explain that the Prophet (saw) did not have a marriage to Aisha (ra) until after she had reached puberty because we are explaining that based on what a marriage means to a westerner in the 21st century. The contract that was signed when she was younger in contemporary terms would be a pre-nuptual agreement and a sort of engagement, but would not be considered a proper marriage in the current time & place.

Further your missing on the fact up until the mid-twentieth century, most Arabs did not keep records of birth dates, celebrate birthdays or have any record as to how old someone was. People did not really know what their age was with any sort of accuracy like we know today. Rather maturity was determined by biology..."Has the girl/boy entered in to puberty?" Laws such as "18 years old is considered adulthood" are very-very modern constructs.

Another piece of information that you seem to be forgetting was that the Prophet (saw) was married to one woman starting at the age of 25 for nearly two decades, a woman that was much his *senior* not a youth. That is not the track record of someone who engages in pedophilia or has any sort of perverse inclinations. Rather look at and review the lives and backgrounds of those engaged in what we consider pedophilia today...they started to have such inclinations and were engaged in practices of perversion from quite a young age.

So to sum it up...the Prophet (saw) married & consummated the marriage with a woman whom had reached puberty. In modern terms someone around the age was of Aisha (ra) is no where near ready for school and with the exception of a few cases has not reached puberty. In 7th century Arabia this was not the case and therefore I am very comfortable with it.
 
Old 06-10-2015, 09:50 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 771,005 times
Reputation: 841
Also is it not a little strange that Juju has around 27 posts with nearly the entirety of them being in the Islam forum? For some reason I highly doubt that he just stumbled upon our forum, despite this being a website that caters to relocations and travel. He sounds a lot like a person or two whom were banned from here...
 
Old 06-10-2015, 01:06 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
"We explain that the Prophet (saw) did not have a marriage to Aisha (ra) until after she had reached puberty"

The hadiths say that you are wrong. According to hadiths Muhammed 'married' Aisha when she was six. Do not tell me that at six Aisha had reached puberty.

Muhammed started raping her when she was nine. It was possible but very unlikely that she could have had menarche unusually early. But according to Islam, that was not the case. She was still playing with her dolls, which means she had not had menarche when Muhammed started raping her.

The issue of menarche is a false issue. The start of menarche is ONE part of the journey to sexual maturity. Another would be the ability to give informed consent. Another would be a sexually mature body, which a 9 year old does not have.

What we have here is something very perverted. A 53 year old man wanting to screw a 9 year old child...a 4th grader. It completely flies in the face of HUMAN sexuality and turns it into some savage animal behavior. Actually, it is worse as animals do not even do such a thing!! Only the most evil of sub-humans, like Muhammed, rape children. Humans, including animals, are protective of children. To rape a child is to terrorize that child. There is a reason why pedophiles are the lowest of the low in prisons.

What kind of man wants to rape a little girl? The pain involved, the psychological harm, the injury to the child.....and what is that kind of sex based on? Nothing good. Nothing rational. Certainly not mutual respect and common values. THINK ABOUT A 53 YEAR OLD MAN RAPING A 9 YEAR OLD CHILD!

To top it off, Muhammed was setting an example for the future. The example he set was rape, pedophilia, terrorism, hate, murder, backwardness, illiteracy, stupidity, submission to evil, slavery, perversions.....

Let's remember that raping a child was ONE of MANY evils that Muhammed pulled.

"Further your missing on the fact up until the mid-twentieth century, most Arabs did not keep records of birth dates,"

This is one of the very common excuses apologetics use. Aisha's age is clearly documented in the hadiths and it was clearly documented that she was a child, still playing with dolls and swinging with her girlfriends.

"Another piece of information that you seem to be forgetting was that the Prophet (saw) was married to one woman starting at the age of 25 for nearly two decades, a woman that was much his *senior* not a youth. "

According to statistics provided by the Mayo Clinic, 93% of heterosexual male pedophiles have also engaged in adult relationships.

Also, this woman was RICH.

So to sum it up... Muhammed, at 53 years old and very horney sub-human, raped a little 9 year old child who had not even had her first period, let alone reached puberty, a PROCESS of becoming mature and ready for a sexual relationship, but not with horney old men. Muhammed also hit the child on her chest and watched as another man smacked her around. Muhammed made Aisha clean gobs of sperm from his clothes, probably there from screwing his many other wives and slaves in addition to raping Aisha. Muhammed was into bathing and fondling with Aisha and his other wives when they were on their periods after warning others never to do such a thing. Muhammed also raped women and sold women and ordered women to be slaughtered.

You am very comfortable with it.
 
Old 06-10-2015, 01:12 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
"Also is it not a little strange that Juju has around 27 posts with nearly the entirety of them being in the Islam forum? For some reason I highly doubt that he just stumbled upon our forum, despite this being a website that caters to relocations and travel. He sounds a lot like a person or two whom were banned from here..."

Casting ill-considered personal aspersions is the last resort of those with a failed argument.
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