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Old 06-11-2015, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Would you agree the Quran [in part] is inherently violent?
This is made worse because the Quran which is the words of God is immutable.
In addition, the abrogation rule dictate that the very aggressive verses of the Medinian override the Meccan verses where is counts.
No more so than the Bible. The Bible has a lot of violent parts to it too. I believe the Quran, Bible, and Torah are products of their time.

And most followers of Monotheism aren't violent people.

 
Old 06-12-2015, 01:04 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
At the moment just addressing the last Paragraph.

I will agree there are many ayyats (lines) that when read as stand alone comments or viewed as commands they are extremely violent.

But, none of them is to be considered a commandment nor should be read alone. Each ayyat has to be taken in the context of the Surah or at least the portion of the Surah that is speaking of the particular topic.
Qualification: Note not all Muslims (like all people) are violent and evil prone. It is only the 20% who are likely to be violent prone and the 1% who are the hardcore.

I am sure you are aware why there are PG ratings and censor of violence in various medias as they are likely to influence the vulnerable especially children to commit violence. A lot of psychological research has been done to support this point.

You agreed there are many verses in the Quran that contain violent elements [some are very extreme]. Based on research, the existence of violent elements itself are sufficient to influence the vulnerable and zealous minority to commit violence. This is a fact with some Muslims when they are influenced by the Quran's violent elements as compounded by the Hadiths, Sira and other related texts. Thus the existence of so many violent laden verses [even with context] in the Quran is a negative point for Islam in contrast to say Buddhism, Jainism and the likes.

Some of the evil laden verses are conditioned by contexts, e.g. in self-defense when the religion is under threat. The problem is some minorities Muslims are so psychologically sensitive that anything will be viewed as a threat, e.g. cartoons (Charlie Hebdo), education (Malala) and many others.

I agree many non-Muslims [I don't see them as haters* of Islam] quote the violent texts on a standalone basis. I think this is because of time and space constraints to give extra explanations.
In my case, I may also quote those violent laden texts [never truncated unless ..] on their own, but my intent is always in the overall context of the Quran, the religion and human nature. I don't regard reference to the related verses sufficient.

I mentioned the 55% of the verses in the Quran contain negative and antagonistic elements directed against the Kuffar [infidels] on the background of bigotry and hatred. This is creamed off with 300+ verses relating to war elements against the Kuffar [Kafaroo, Kafir{sing.}]. This is the basis that act as a catalyst in triggering 'some' Muslims to commit terrible evils upon the Kuffar.


Quote:
What I see frequently being done by the haters of the Qur'an is they frequently take an ayyat out of context, or worse even truncate the ayyat. They also falsely present the ayyat as if it was a command.
*It is very ironic that you mentioned 'haters of the Quran' when it is the Quran that initiate hatred of the Kuffar in the first place for no good reasons at all except from the psychological insecurity of Muhammad. Note the 55% of verses containing directly and indirect hatred of the Kuffar [infidels]. There is no unconditional compassion and empathy for the Kuffar in the Quran.
IMO, it is those antagonistic Muslims that deserve the tag 'Kuffarphobia.'

There may be some genuine haters of Islam [not hatred for Muslims btw] for whatever the purpose. However, many of those who critique the Quran and Islam in various sites, forums, media and other sources have genuine rational and justified fears of Islam [in part] based on the real terrible evils committed by some Muslims.
When I see bearded Muslims, I get real jitters [its instinctual and I have to modulate it intellectually]. I am wary when I am on a plane and visiting certain tourist spots, e.g. Muzeums. Wanted to visit the pyramids in Egypt, but now it is definitely a no go site for me.

Therefore it is ridiculous to accuse those who critique Islam based on real justified and rational fears of Islam [in part] as Islamophobes [irrational fears of Islam].

Quote:
Just as an example I will illustrate with some ayyats the hate sites seem to place emphasis on.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
As I mentioned we need to consider the above and other similar verses in the whole contexts of
the Quran, Islam and human nature. The above will directly, indirectly or subliminally be translated as a command from Allah in relation to one's reward in heaven.

I have read of many declarations by some Muslims who stated they were commanded by the religion [thus Allah] to kill infidels.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Van Gogh killer jailed for life

Quote:
"The murder of Theo van Gogh provoked a wave of revulsion and disdain in the Netherlands. Theo van Gogh was mercilessly slaughtered," said Judge Udo Willem Bentinck.

Brutal killing
Bouyeri had told the court he had acted out of religious conviction. Clutching a copy of the Koran, he said that "the law compels me to chop off the head of anyone who insults Allah and the prophet".
Btw, which sect and school of Islam do you belong to?
 
Old 06-12-2015, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessxwrites89 View Post
No more so than the Bible. The Bible has a lot of violent parts to it too. I believe the Quran, Bible, and Torah are products of their time.

And most followers of Monotheism aren't violent people.
The Bible [OT and NT] has much more violent laden elements [and some are very disgusting] than the Quran.

I mentioned in other posts, for Christianity, the OT is abrogated by the milder verses of the NT where it counts, e.g. love your neighbors, love your enemies, give the other cheek etc.

If Jesus were to return at present, he would have scolded the abortion clinic killers as follows;
"wt.. I told you to love your enemies not to kill them for that you will be punished in hell"

The Torah may still be used by the Jews, but based on actual realities, there are not many Jews at present who are dogmatic on this. If so, they must be condemned accordingly.

No one has asserted most of followers of Monotheism are violent people.

The root of violence re OP is from the following;

1. A small percentage of evil prone Muslims [as in any large human groups]
2. A big percentage, 55% of evil laden verses [of various degrees] in the Quran.

The combination of 1 and 2 trigger 'some' Muslims in 1 to commit terrible violence and evils [glaringly evident] upon the Kuffar [infidels].
 
Old 06-12-2015, 01:33 AM
 
67 posts, read 40,774 times
Reputation: 16
test test, troubles in loging in.
 
Old 06-12-2015, 01:50 AM
 
67 posts, read 40,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Qualification: Note not all Muslims (like all people) are violent and evil prone. It is only the 20% who are likely to be violent prone


Btw, which sect and school of Islam do you belong to?

Mmm.... you probably have no problems in living in peace in your parts of world, that are of Christendom. But in a place that is described like the Biblic Canna, nobody could help you but the biblic diety; whom the land wanted dead.

Those people of Cannites have psychologic problems, nothing you could really do for them. The brutality and insanity are their trademarks. I had been practicing the last quality lately. There were nothing really I could do for them.
 
Old 06-12-2015, 03:57 AM
 
67 posts, read 40,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Bambam_ View Post
Why you allow "violent" Islam and Muslims to live in your country ? Do they have the equal rights with you legally ?
Your country? To live in YOUR country? You think this is a communist world? YOUR country?
 
Old 06-12-2015, 06:21 AM
 
67 posts, read 40,774 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Bambam_ View Post
I ve asked quite simple question. Muslims or Christians or whatever have equal rights with you, is not it ? They live there legally. They are allowed by your state, is not it ? Then you are grumbling in vain. You should be arrested because of hate speech, spreading hatred, disturbing social peace, risking lives indirect way.
Yes, they're supposedly having the equal rights. However, you probably have no idea on what sort of people that we are talking about. Please allow me to remind you that we are talking about a people who have no place for GOD.

At first, everything would look okay, as they are all the baby animals. Then without the knowledge of GOD the MOST HIGH of the Bible, they turned out beastly. Their lives are now here for the worldly things. They are very very dangerous, as they are the most highs acting up altogether. Imagine the Asian gangs in your school. Have you ever seen any gangs from the other ethics as hard as to communicate with? Hence, I said insanity and brutality were their trademarks.

And it seemed clear to me that you had no idea on what you were talking about like all the atheists. You live in your small part of world, minding to harvest your own pleasures, and defending your own interests. You had never thought of the grand scale, right? Your mind is only repeating the two words - peace and harmony, peace and harmony, peace and harmony, peace ........ until you step into a booby trap. When Hitler was about to reign, the people like you allowed it and cheered. Seeing much much profits before you, then you made "peace and harmonies" all the way.

Say reckon, as a believer, I shouldn't argue with you. And I am not doing it. Rather, I am communicating. And by communicating with you, I profited you and became a target. I just want you to see how severe the truths are. And it is because I am not going to lift these burdens any more, I feel obligated to pass down what I know to my beloved brethrens, whom are more able to solve the problems with the permission from someone that you have no place for.

You don't know GOD. Your fathers, mothers, grandfathers, great grandfathers lied. Is that even my business? I give my hand to you, and you threaten to turn me to the authorities.
You are not this gerno. Are you a Taiwanese spy?

The Laws and Orders forum is on the another page. This is the Pot House.
 
Old 06-12-2015, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

----SNIP-------

Btw, which sect and school of Islam do you belong to?
There is only One Islam. Islam is not an organized religion, it is the physical and Mental act of Submitting to Allah to the best of ones ability and knowledge.

Currently I find the best way to do so is by using the Hanafi Madhab of Sunni a guide. The Hanafi Madhab is very flexible in that it takes into account local needs and traditions. It, in my opinion, is the Madhab best suited for a Muslim living in a Western Nation.

A brief explanation of what I strive to follow can be found HERE

For a more in depth explanation about Madhabs and why a Muslim should study all 4 Madhabs then select one and only one to live by.

Quote:
However, the crux of the matter is that the interpretation of the
Qur'an and the Sunna is not a simple one. It requires an intensive
and extensive study of the sacred sources of Shari a, which cannot
be undertaken by a person unqualified in the field. If every Muslim
was obligated to consult the Holy Qur'an and Sunna on each and
every problem arising before him, it would burden him with a
responsibility that would be almost impossible to fulfill. This is
because the derivation of the rules of Shari 'a from the Qur'an and
Sunna requires a thorough knowledge of the Arabic language and
all the relevant sciences- a combination which every person is not
known to have. The only solution to this problem is that a few people
should equip themselves with the required knowledge of Shari'a and
others should ask them about the rulings in their day-to-day affairs.
See HERE


Quote:
The word madhhab is derived from an Arabic word meaning "to go" or "to take as a way", and refers to a mujtahid's choice in regard to a number of interpretive possibilities in deriving the rule of Allah from the primary texts of the Qur'an and hadith on a particular question. In a larger sense, a madhhab represents the entire school of thought of a particular mujtahid Imam, such as Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi'i, or Ahmad--together with many first-rank scholars that came after each of these in their respective schools, who checked their evidences and refined and upgraded their work. The mujtahid Imams were thus explainers, who operationalized the Qur'an and sunna in the specific shari'a rulings in our lives that are collectively known as fiqh or "jurisprudence". In relation to our din or "religion", this fiqh is only part of it, for the religious knowledge each of us possesses is of three types. The first type is the general knowledge of tenets of Islamic belief in the oneness of Allah, in His angels, Books, messengers, the prophethood of Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), and so on. All of us may derive this knowledge directly from the Qur'an and hadith, as is also the case with a second type of knowledge, that of general Islamic ethical principles to do good, avoid evil, cooperate with others in good works, and so forth. Every Muslim can take these general principles, which form the largest and most important part of his religion, from the Qur'an and hadith.

The third type of knowledge is that of the specific understanding of particular divine commands and prohibitions that make up the shari'a. Here, because of both the nature and the sheer number of the Qur'an and hadith texts involved, people differ in the scholarly capacity to understand and deduce rulings from them. But all of us have been commanded to live them in our lives, in obedience to Allah, and so Muslims are of two types, those who can do this by themselves, and they are the mujtahid Imams; and those who must do so by means of another, that is, by following a mujtahid Imam, in accordance with Allah's word in Surat al-Nahl,
SOURCE


Here is a good source for an in depth study of Hanafi. It is lengthy but does a very good Job at explaining Hanafi.

Quote:
My Love and My Choice
Edited by Syed Mumtaz Ali

Part I - The supreme Sunni Way of Life & the Honourable Hanafi School of Law
Part II - Beliefs and Kalam
Chart showing the divergent views between the various Imams regarding Theft
Chart showing the divergent views between the Imams regarding Marriage
Increase and Decrease of Faith in Terms of Quality and Quantity
All Muslims are Equal in Respect to Beliefs
For the site see HERE

About 30% of Muslims that call them self Sunni follow the Hanafi Madhab. But since Hanafi does take into account local needs and traditions Hanafi does vary by Nation.
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is only One Islam. Islam is not an organized religion, it is the physical and Mental act of Submitting to Allah to the best of ones ability and knowledge.
Here is an analogy to the essence of the above point from a philosophical [my forte] perspective.
There are many forms of food intake which vary from person to person and tribe to tribe around the world, but there is only one generic digestive system in all humans.
It is the same for sex which can be done in many ways, but there is one generic sex drive within humanity.

As with the above analogies, there are many forms of religions, spirituality and mystical practices but there is only one inherent existential drive to deal with the generic "existential dilemma" within all humans.

Your 'ONE Islam' is merely a form of the generic 'existential dilemma' drive to deal with the psychological angst that arise from this dilemma.
As mentioned, there are many forms of religions, spirituality and mystical practices that has sprung up since thousands of years ago.

We have a variety of religions, e.g. animism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism to deal with the ONE generic existential dilemma but as you can see it is ONLY the way Islam is straightjacketed within a rigid Quran [and acted upon by SOME very zealous Muslims] that is contributing terrible evils [OP's violent] to humanity at present and is a great threat in the future.
I have provided the proofs to this point in my earlier postings.


Quote:
Currently I find the best way to do so is by using the Hanafi Madhab of Sunni a guide. The Hanafi Madhab is very flexible in that it takes into account local needs and traditions. It, in my opinion, is the Madhab best suited for a Muslim living in a Western Nation.
Noted your point re Hanafi and the links you provided.

If all of humanity understand the generic essence of the existential dilemma and take adopt [in relation to their conditions] the various religions, spirituality and mystical practices OTHER than Islam, the world [at present and in the future] would definitely be more peaceful and less threatened in terms of religious violence. For example, if all Muslims were to adopt Jainism, Buddhism, Vedanta [Hinduism] I am very sure, the world will be more peaceful with less religious violence. [note there will be secular evil which MUST be deal with, but that is a separate topic.

The Islamic Madhabs including the Hanafi Madhab are still problematic in combination with the inherent SOME extremists Muslims because they are structured and conditioned by the problematic Quran related to Muhammad.

Note the following progressive compounding problem;
1. Quran [partly problematic, say 50%]
2. Hadiths and Sira centered on Quran factor in another 10% of violence.
3. Madhads interpretations of 1 with 2 factor in another 20% of violence.

My point is the Hadiths & Sira and Madhads may add positive elements but the net effect is more negative.

You will note the Hadiths and Sira made references [by humans] to the original words of God, but they [zealots] often exaggerate and amplify the violence and evil elements by some additional % of violence from those of the Quran.

From the Hadiths and Sira, the Madhabs texts will made more exaggerations and amplifications like 'fish tales' to create greater influence and inspiration on the believers to commit violence and evils on the infidel.

You may be a good person and human being but you have to recognize there is always a continuum of humans from the very good to the very evil. 1% of Muslims is 15 million [1.5b x1%] around the world and this is a VERY frightening quantum noting that it only took 18++ to do 911, lone wolves are sufficient to create great havoc. ISIS itself is sold confirmation of the real threat of Islam-in-part.

Whilst you may find the Hanafi Madhabs useful but there are no exception to evil and violence when adopted by violent/evil prone Muslims. For example,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi#Violence
Quote:
Historical Hanafi scholars have stated that all violence is justified when it
benefits Muslims and Islam.
The violent prone Hanafi Muslims will find all sort of ways and excuses to justify and satisfy their lusts for violence and evil.

The Madhab of the Shafii school is guided by,
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law: Nuh Ha MIM Keller: 9780915957729: Amazon.com: Books

There are various techniques and recommendation to made war on the Kuffar in the above text.
And worse,
4:95. -it informs us that there is an annually recurring obligation to attack kuffar. Al Shafi'i has made the matter perfectly clear.
RelianceO9.1
Islam Exposed: Reliance of the Traveller: Handbook of Shari'ah

It is natural and critical you need Islam for some personal soteriological purpose to deal with the inherent existential dilemma, but you cannot deny with all the evidences available, Islam is PARTLY malignant. Humanity must recognize, understand, acknowledge and deal with that problem.
 
Old 06-12-2015, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is an analogy to the essence of the above point from a philosophical [my forte] perspective.
There are many forms of food intake which vary from person to person and tribe to tribe around the world, but there is only one generic digestive system in all humans.
It is the same for sex which can be done in many ways, but there is one generic sex drive within humanity.

As with the above analogies, there are many forms of religions, spirituality and mystical practices but there is only one inherent existential drive to deal with the generic "existential dilemma" within all humans.

Your 'ONE Islam' is merely a form of the generic 'existential dilemma' drive to deal with the psychological angst that arise from this dilemma.
As mentioned, there are many forms of religions, spirituality and mystical practices that has sprung up since thousands of years ago.

We have a variety of religions, e.g. animism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism to deal with the ONE generic existential dilemma but as you can see it is ONLY the way Islam is straightjacketed within a rigid Quran [and acted upon by SOME very zealous Muslims] that is contributing terrible evils [OP's violent] to humanity at present and is a great threat in the future.
I have provided the proofs to this point in my earlier postings.


Noted your point re Hanafi and the links you provided.

If all of humanity understand the generic essence of the existential dilemma and take adopt [in relation to their conditions] the various religions, spirituality and mystical practices OTHER than Islam, the world [at present and in the future] would definitely be more peaceful and less threatened in terms of religious violence. For example, if all Muslims were to adopt Jainism, Buddhism, Vedanta [Hinduism] I am very sure, the world will be more peaceful with less religious violence. [note there will be secular evil which MUST be deal with, but that is a separate topic.

The Islamic Madhabs including the Hanafi Madhab are still problematic in combination with the inherent SOME extremists Muslims because they are structured and conditioned by the problematic Quran related to Muhammad.

Note the following progressive compounding problem;
1. Quran [partly problematic, say 50%]
2. Hadiths and Sira centered on Quran factor in another 10% of violence.
3. Madhads interpretations of 1 with 2 factor in another 20% of violence.

My point is the Hadiths & Sira and Madhads may add positive elements but the net effect is more negative.

You will note the Hadiths and Sira made references [by humans] to the original words of God, but they [zealots] often exaggerate and amplify the violence and evil elements by some additional % of violence from those of the Quran.

From the Hadiths and Sira, the Madhabs texts will made more exaggerations and amplifications like 'fish tales' to create greater influence and inspiration on the believers to commit violence and evils on the infidel.

You may be a good person and human being but you have to recognize there is always a continuum of humans from the very good to the very evil. 1% of Muslims is 15 million [1.5b x1%] around the world and this is a VERY frightening quantum noting that it only took 18++ to do 911, lone wolves are sufficient to create great havoc. ISIS itself is sold confirmation of the real threat of Islam-in-part.

Whilst you may find the Hanafi Madhabs useful but there are no exception to evil and violence when adopted by violence prone Muslims. For example,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi#Violence

The violent prone Hanafi Muslims will find all sort of ways and excuses to justify and satisfy their lusts for violence and evil.

The Madhab of the Shafii school is guided by,
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law: Nuh Ha MIM Keller: 9780915957729: Amazon.com: Books

There are various techniques and recommendation to made war on the Kuffar in the above text.
And worse,
4:95. -it informs us that there is an annually recurring obligation to attack kuffar. Al Shafi'i has made the matter perfectly clear.
RelianceO9.1
Islam Exposed: Reliance of the Traveller: Handbook of Shari'ah

It is natural and critical you need Islam for some personal soteriological purpose to deal with the inherent existential dilemma, but you cannot deny with all the evidences available, Islam is PARTLY malignant. Humanity must recognize, understand, acknowledge and deal with that problem.
One thing first very few if any Muslims consider the Sirat Rasool Allah" to be valid. It does have a few verifiable facts but the majority has no supporting evidence to back them up. I do not know one Muslim that would even recommend it as a guide to Islam.

I personally see the violence attributed to Muslims to be no more that what is shown by all human groups. Us humans do have a large number in our midst that are prone to violence. The more over populated a region becomes the more violent it becomes. You may be familiar with Calhoun's rat experiments in Behavioral Psych. Letting the rat out of the bag - Environment - Research highlights - Research and expertise - Home

The areas with the highest percentage of violence are very over crowded (Mideast, Pakistan, India). I contend the inherent violence is the result of over crowding and not the fact they are Muslim. But I will concede that the over crowding is the result of their being Muslim even though Islam permits birth control it is not socially acceptable This is an issue that must be addressed in the Muslim Nations.
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