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Old 06-12-2015, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
--SNIP---

It is natural and critical you need Islam for some personal soteriological purpose to deal with the inherent existential dilemma, but you cannot deny with all the evidences available, Islam is PARTLY malignant. Humanity must recognize, understand, acknowledge and deal with that problem.

Fair enough question. How and why I accepted Islam after 20 years of being a happy Atheist. Is a bit complex. But it is the result of a personal experience that convinced me God(exists) and the five pillars of Islam are the best way to worship Him.

Because of Sevice connected PTSD I can not be around people for any length of time, I have extreme panic attacks when in a crowd or around too much noise. My personal needs are considerable solitude and quiet.

Islam is a religion in which I can worship with no need of clergy or a specidied place of worship. although it was the events of Vietnam that are the direct cause of my PTSD it did not affect me until I was about 50 years old. Totaly ended my career as a psychologist.

I am very content to live isolated with very little contact with anyone except my wife and do benefit from being able to worship in the solitude of my home. Islam is also a low budget religion, we do not tithe.I have never been in a mosque that has ever had a collection unless it was to help a needy person in the community.

On the rare times I am not likely to have any Flashbacks I do attend the Mosque in Fargo and before moving here I was able to function as an Imam in Austin on the occasions I was able to go to the Mosque. One draw back or blessing of getting old. When you go to the Mosque you are the oldest one present and are expected to be the Imam for the Salat.. (there are no ordained clergy) and all an Imam is required to do is lead the Salat. An Imam is not supposed to preach or teach--but many Imams have been starting to.
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One thing first very few if any Muslims consider the Sirat Rasool Allah" to be valid. It does have a few verifiable facts but the majority has no supporting evidence to back them up. I do not know one Muslim that would even recommend it as a guide to Islam.
Let's say the influence of the Sira relatively is as follows; Quran 100%, Hadiths -50 -75%, Sira -10-30% [varying with individuals and groups]. Muhammad is supposed to the perfect example for mankind to follow, as such the Sira definitely will have an influence for SOME (20% -300 million).

Quote:
I personally see the violence attributed to Muslims to be no more that what is shown by all human groups. Us humans do have a large number in our midst that are prone to violence. The more over populated a region becomes the more violent it becomes. You may be familiar with Calhoun's rat experiments in Behavioral Psych. Letting the rat out of the bag - Environment - Research highlights - Research and expertise - Home

The areas with the highest percentage of violence are very over crowded (Mideast, Pakistan, India). I contend the inherent violence is the result of over crowding and not the fact they are Muslim. But I will concede that the over crowding is the result of their being Muslim even though Islam permits birth control it is not socially acceptable This is an issue that must be addressed in the Muslim Nations.
I read a lot on psychology but not Calhoun's rat experiments.
My interpretation of that experiment is over-crowding leads to stress [cortisol loosen certain moral inhibitions], which trigger the fight and flight responses.
The greater number of people and close proximity will enable more people with greater 'fight' inclinations to get together to organize and spread their evil ways. Now it is the age of the internet, so physical proximity is no issue here.

What is relevant for this OP is the Quran, Hadiths, Sira [lesser] and other related texts are catalyst to trigger an already stressed situation or even where it is not crowded like from the Arabian deserts.

Therefore the root cause of violence from Muslim is specifically from the Quran, Hadiths, Sira and other texts and ethos of Islam that acts as a catalyst in triggering SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils.

Since you are an ex-psychologist, you may be familiar with the Milgram experiment re catalysts to commit evil related to 'obedience'.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOYLCy5PVgM

There are 45 verses in the Quran directly [many indirectly] exhorting Muslims to obey Allah and Muhammad unconditionally.
The Quran promote the primal "us versus them" and dehumanize the Kuffar.
If you understand the principles of the Milgram experiment you should understand how SOME Muslims [just as others in similar conditions] are triggered to evils and violence under the influence of the sanction of Allah.
Btw, I have done extensive research on the concept of 'evil.'

The root of violence by Muslims is from the Quran, Hadiths, Sira and other secondary texts and committed by Muslims [as humans] who are inherently violent [DNA/RNA] on the extreme end of the normal distribution.
 
Old 06-12-2015, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Fair enough question. How and why I accepted Islam after 20 years of being a happy Atheist. Is a bit complex. But it is the result of a personal experience that convinced me God(exists) and the five pillars of Islam are the best way to worship Him.

Because of Sevice connected PTSD I can not be around people for any length of time, I have extreme panic attacks when in a crowd or around too much noise. My personal needs are considerable solitude and quiet.

Islam is a religion in which I can worship with no need of clergy or a specidied place of worship. although it was the events of Vietnam that are the direct cause of my PTSD it did not affect me until I was about 50 years old. Totaly ended my career as a psychologist.

I am very content to live isolated with very little contact with anyone except my wife and do benefit from being able to worship in the solitude of my home. Islam is also a low budget religion, we do not tithe.I have never been in a mosque that has ever had a collection unless it was to help a needy person in the community.

On the rare times I am not likely to have any Flashbacks I do attend the Mosque in Fargo and before moving here I was able to function as an Imam in Austin on the occasions I was able to go to the Mosque. One draw back or blessing of getting old. When you go to the Mosque you are the oldest one present and are expected to be the Imam for the Salat.. (there are no ordained clergy) and all an Imam is required to do is lead the Salat. An Imam is not supposed to preach or teach--but many Imams have been starting to.
I fully understand your conditions and situation. Thus I would not advocate you revert to be an atheist.
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God | Atheism & Most Religious Countries

Whilst you need a religion critically and very necessary, as a human and for humanity sake, you have to be objective about Islam regarding its good and notable evil influence on the well being of humanity at present and in the future.

If is unfortunate you got caught up with Islam. IMO, Christianity coupled with Buddhism would be a better option. Christianity will provide a soteriological belief [if really needed] with a lesser negative baggage and one can use Buddhism-proper to rationalize the PTSD - after all PTSD is merely something mechanical from the neuroscientific perspective.

In any case, objectively the facts of the evil elements in Islam [partly] triggering SOME Muslims is inescapable and humanity must deal with this aspect of Islam.
 
Old 06-13-2015, 12:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I fully understand your conditions and situation. Thus I would not advocate you revert to be an atheist.
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God | Atheism & Most Religious Countries

Whilst you need a religion critically and very necessary, as a human and for humanity sake, you have to be objective about Islam regarding its good and notable evil influence on the well being of humanity at present and in the future.

If is unfortunate you got caught up with Islam. IMO, Christianity coupled with Buddhism would be a better option. Christianity will provide a soteriological belief [if really needed] with a lesser negative baggage and one can use Buddhism-proper to rationalize the PTSD - after all PTSD is merely something mechanical from the neuroscientific perspective.

In any case, objectively the facts of the evil elements in Islam [partly] triggering SOME Muslims is inescapable and humanity must deal with this aspect of Islam.
Before I forget I have read most if not all of Milgram's work. One of my undergrad courses was "Psychology Personified" and Milgram was one high lighted in it. I was fortunate for the course we had Bruno Bettleheim as an exchange professor for the course (Yes I am that old) Yes Idid ask him about Joey, In typical Bettelheim humor he answered "Joey eventually forgave me."

Actually I find Islam to be the most peaceful of the Abrahamic Faiths. But the reason I stay Muslim is becuse I am fully convinced the Qur'an is the actual Words of God(swt) and were not authored by any human..

One of my avocations has been languages I do read and write Arabic reasonbly well and consider myself proficient in speaking the Darija Arabic of Morocco and Algeria.

While classical Arabic is loosely based upon the Tajweed of the Qur'an they are quite different in many aspects. The Tajweed is quite different from any other Arabic dialect yet a speaker of any Arabic dialect has no difficulty in understanding the Qur'an. Not even Muhammad(saws) spoke the Tajweed. All quotes by him in the Ahadith are in the colloquial Arabic used by the Quraysh (Muhammad;s tribe) of the era.
So far no one has been able to write even one original logical Sentence using the Tajweed of the Qur'an all attempts end up as gibberish. It is as if every possible Logical sentence in Tajweed is contained in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the only Arabic book in the Tajweed.

While I am willing to toss the "Numerical Miracles of the Qur'an off as coincidences I find them to be fascinating and calls for quite a few coincidences.

The statement of "seven heavens" is repeated seven times. "The creation of the heavens (khalq as-samawat)" is also repeated seven times.

"Day (yawm)" is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms "days (ayyam and yawmayn)" together are repeated 30 times. The number of repetitions of the word "month" (shahar) is 12.

The number of repetitions of the words "plant" and "tree" is the same: 26

The word "payment or reward" is repeated 117 times, while the expression "forgiveness" (mughfirah), which is one of the basic morals of the Qur'an, is repeated exactly twice that amount, 234 times.

When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase "they said."

The number of times the words, "world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhira) are repeated is also the same: 115

The word "satan" (shaitan) is used in the Qur'an 88 times, as is the word "angels" (malaika).

The word faith (iman) (without genitive) is repeated 25 times throughout the Qur'an as is also the word infidelity (kufr).

The words "paradise" and "hell" are each repeated 77 times.

The word "zakah" is repeated in the Qur'an 32 times and the number of repetitions of the word "blessing" (barakah) is also 32.

The expression "the righteous" (al-abraar) is used 6 times but "the wicked" (al-fujjaar) is used half as much, i.e., 3 times.

The number of times the words "Summer-hot" and "winter-cold" are repeated is the same: 5.

The words "wine" (khamr) and "intoxication" (saqara) are repeated in the Qur'an the same number of times: 6

For more:
Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Before I forget I have read most if not all of Milgram's work. One of my undergrad courses was "Psychology Personified" and Milgram was one high lighted in it. I was fortunate for the course we had Bruno Bettleheim as an exchange professor for the course (Yes I am that old) Yes Idid ask him about Joey, In typical Bettelheim humor he answered "Joey eventually forgave me."
If you were to set aside Islam for soteriological purpose for a while and apply Milgram's work re 'obedience' you will be able to understand objectively how violence manifest from Islam via the jihadists [the truer Muslims].
One element of Islam is the threat of going to hell on Judgment Day and this is reflected in 30%+ of verses in the Quran.
With 50% of verses that are antagonistically directed at the Kuffar and 300+ verses relating to war on the Kuffar, it is inevitable that the infidels [driven by Milgram's principles] has ended up as innocent victims of jihadists' violence and evils.
Just imagine innocent Jews, Christians and non-Muslims are killed merely because Muhammad took vengeance for being mocked by them and this hatred is universalized in a book and realized by SOME Muslims over the last 1400 years and into the future.

Quote:
Actually I find Islam to be the most peaceful of the Abrahamic Faiths.
Subjectively you have to make the above unjustified statement, otherwise the soteriology will not work effectively for you. You have to be bias and therefore end up being cognitive blind to the objective facts.
You have failed to see the 500 pound gorilla in the room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

I don't think you can prove or justify this point at all against Christianity with its 'love your neighbor,' 'love your enemies.' 'give your other cheeks' sentiments. Islam on the other hand, even with some conditions, in general is directed at killing the kuffar where necessary. This is evident by actual cases of genocides and all sorts of evils committed by jihadists and other Muslims at the present and its threat in the future. In general, without personal bias, there is no way Islam can be more peaceful than Christianity or even Judaism in the comparison of real body bags at present.

Quote:
But the reason I stay Muslim is becuse I am fully convinced the Qur'an is the
actual Words of God(swt) and were not authored by any human..
This is one of the worst basis to believe in a religion. The Quran contain tons of contradictions and various absurdities.
Contradictions in the Qur'an - WikiIslam
An omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God would not have revealed a holy text that is laden with contradictions and condone the terrible evils therein.

Quote:
One of my avocations has been languages I do read and write Arabic reasonbly well and consider myself proficient in speaking the Darija Arabic of Morocco and Algeria.

While classical Arabic is loosely based upon the Tajweed of the Qur'an they are quite different in many aspects. The Tajweed is quite different from any other Arabic dialect yet a speaker of any Arabic dialect has no difficulty in understanding the Qur'an. Not even Muhammad(saws) spoke the Tajweed. All quotes by him in the Ahadith are in the colloquial Arabic used by the Quraysh (Muhammad;s tribe) of the era.
So far no one has been able to write even one original logical Sentence using the Tajweed of the Qur'an all attempts end up as gibberish. It is as if every possible Logical sentence in Tajweed is contained in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the only Arabic book in the Tajweed.
What is most critical is the substance of the contents not the arrangements.
There is nothing significantly new that Muhammad brought forth in the Quran except the self-declaration [as convinced by Khadijah] that he was the new prophesized Messiah.
Those who know him best, e.g. Abu Talib. his uncle was not convinced.
Will you be convinced if one of your nephew you knew for 40 years were to suddenly announced he is the messenger of God?

Within the psychology community at present there are many who claimed they are some sort of agent of God. At present, most of them ended with some psychiatrists, psychologists or mental wards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg
Note this guy who claimed he is associated with God.
If this has happened 2000 years ago, he would have a good chance of being recognized as a prophet but not now.

Quote:
While I am willing to toss the "Numerical Miracles of the Qur'an off as coincidences I find them to be fascinating and calls for quite a few coincidences.
This is too flimsy. Are you into the '19' of the submitters' as well?
 
Old 06-13-2015, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you were to set aside Islam for soteriological purpose for a while and apply Milgram's work re 'obedience' you will be able to understand objectively how violence manifest from Islam via the jihadists [the truer Muslims].
One element of Islam is the threat of going to hell on Judgment Day and this is reflected in 30%+ of verses in the Quran.
With 50% of verses that are antagonistically directed at the Kuffar and 300+ verses relating to war on the Kuffar, it is inevitable that the infidels [driven by Milgram's principles] has ended up as innocent victims of jihadists' violence and evils.
Just imagine innocent Jews, Christians and non-Muslims are killed merely because Muhammad took vengeance for being mocked by them and this hatred is universalized in a book and realized by SOME Muslims over the last 1400 years and into the future.

Subjectively you have to make the above unjustified statement, otherwise the soteriology will not work effectively for you. You have to be bias and therefore end up being cognitive blind to the objective facts.
You have failed to see the 500 pound gorilla in the room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

I don't think you can prove or justify this point at all against Christianity with its 'love your neighbor,' 'love your enemies.' 'give your other cheeks' sentiments. Islam on the other hand, even with some conditions, in general is directed at killing the kuffar where necessary. This is evident by actual cases of genocides and all sorts of evils committed by jihadists and other Muslims at the present and its threat in the future. In general, without personal bias, there is no way Islam can be more peaceful than Christianity or even Judaism in the comparison of real body bags at present.

This is one of the worst basis to believe in a religion. The Quran contain tons of contradictions and various absurdities.
Contradictions in the Qur'an - WikiIslam
An omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God would not have revealed a holy text that is laden with contradictions and condone the terrible evils therein.

What is most critical is the substance of the contents not the arrangements.
There is nothing significantly new that Muhammad brought forth in the Quran except the self-declaration [as convinced by Khadijah] that he was the new prophesized Messiah.
Those who know him best, e.g. Abu Talib. his uncle was not convinced.
Will you be convinced if one of your nephew you knew for 40 years were to suddenly announced he is the messenger of God?

Within the psychology community at present there are many who claimed they are some sort of agent of God. At present, most of them ended with some psychiatrists, psychologists or mental wards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg
Note this guy who claimed he is associated with God.
If this has happened 2000 years ago, he would have a good chance of being recognized as a prophet but not now.

This is too flimsy. Are you into the '19' of the submitters' as well?
One of the most common manifestations of Schzophrenia is the belief of being a deity. It is an almost perfect method of self justification for one's actions.If you have not rea it you might enjoy reading "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" you can download it in PDF at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...8kC-3fOEE/edit

The Qur'an is not a new revelation. It is the dame message that was given to all Prophets(pbut) in the past.

Wikiislam is a bit of a confusing site. I find them to typically post partial truths. In other words they are carefull to post things that are true but not in the content intended or the full quote. But, it is their opinion and I do encourage people to use it as seeing other views. Their section on "Contradictions in the Qur'an" is somewhat difficult to sift through.

Just dealing with the part concerning The alleged contradiction


Could Allah have a son?


Quote:
Yes

If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have ..
Be He Glorified! He is Allah, the One, the Absolute.
Qur'an 39:4
Basically it is saying he could have "adopted a son from the Humans he created. "chosen what He would of that which He hath created" Here we are dealing with an adopted son, not a son of his own composistion, not a product of genetic reproduction

ADOPTED--NOT GENETICALLY RELATED

Quote:
No

Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth; How can He have a son when He has no consort?
He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things
Qur'an 6:101
Here we are speaking of a genetic Son, a product of procreation through the process of genetic development. We are speaking of a son that is GENETICALLY RELATED.

There is no contradiction. The word Son has different meanings in each ayyat

Looking at the 2 Ayyats in arabic. I will use the transliterations and the arabic charecter and bold what was translated as son in both ayyats
Qur'an 39:4



لَوْ أَرَادَ اللَّهُ أَنْ يَتَّخِذَ وَلَدًا لَّاصْطَفَى مِمَّا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء سُبْحَانَهُ هُوَ اللَّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ (39:4)

Law arada Allahu an yattakhitha waladan laistafa mimma yakhluqu ma yashao subhanahu huwa Allahu alwahidu alqahharu

39:4 (Asad) Had God willed to take Unto Himself a son, He could have chosen anyone that He wanted out of whatever He has created - [but] limitless is He in His glory! He is the One God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists!


Qur'an 6: 101
بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (6:101)

BadeeAAu alssamawati waalardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shayin wahuwa bikulli shayin AAaleemun

6:101 (Asad) the Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could it be that He should have a child without there ever having been a mate for Him - since it is He who has created everything, and He alone knows everything?

Ladan is best translated as "Adopted Son" and Ladun is best translated as "birth son" although many translators translate both as son. However, the subtlie difference in the spelling denotes they are not exactly the same.

This is my personal opinion and based on my own limited studies.

Astagfirullah (May Allah forgive me if I am wrong)
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One of the most common manifestations of Schzophrenia is the belief of being a deity. It is an almost perfect method of self justification for one's actions.If you have not rea it you might enjoy reading "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" you can download it in PDF at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...8kC-3fOEE/edit
I am not sure if it [deity] is the most common manifestations of Schizophrenia. I would be interested in such statistics.

I have researched quite a lot about schizophrenia and I understand the schizophrenic cannot differentiate between his hallucinations and reality and thus reify his/her illusions as real. This differentiation is within a continuum where the schizo's is of the highest degree while the theists reify the illusory God [deity] in a lower degree in the other end.

According to Ramachandran all human perceptions are similar to hallucinations, it is just the normal person can differentiate between what is commonly real and unreal.
"In a sense, we are all hallucinating all the time," Dr. Ramachandran said. "What we call normal vision is our selecting the hallucination that best fits reality."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/14/sc...eyes.html?_r=0

Theism is based on the reification of an illusory God.


I would be VERY interested in reading "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti." Unfortunately I can't find an available copy to read. This is the sort of book which would support my hypothesis 'all prophets of old are likely suffer some kind of serious hallucinations and reify their illusions' and they are likely to share similar psychology to those who claim to be agents and messengers of God in the past and at present. So one should ask whether one's favorite messenger is in the same shoes or not -there is a high probability it could be the case.

Quote:
The Qur'an is not a new revelation. It is the same message that was given to all
Prophets(pbut) in the past.
So what so special about Muhammad? Anyone [in fact many in the present] to be the latest messenger of some old teachings and is God's representative.

Quote:
Wikiislam is a bit of a confusing site. I find them to typically post partial truths. In other words they are carefull to post things that are true but not in the content intended or the full quote. But, it is their opinion and I do encourage people to use it as seeing other views. Their section on "Contradictions in the Qur'an" is somewhat difficult to sift through.
I agree WikiIslam is not 100% reliable but they do have some substance and it is up to us to do further research to support the various points. When I quote from WikiIslam and similar sites, it is meant to be a quick draft subject to further research.

Here is another source of contradiction in the Quran with more detailed justifications.
Eleven Qur'an Contradictions
 
Old 06-14-2015, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am not sure if it [deity] is the most common manifestations of Schizophrenia. I would be interested in such statistics.

I have researched quite a lot about schizophrenia and I understand the schizophrenic cannot differentiate between his hallucinations and reality and thus reify his/her illusions as real. This differentiation is within a continuum where the schizo's is of the highest degree while the theists reify the illusory God [deity] in a lower degree in the other end.

According to Ramachandran all human perceptions are similar to hallucinations, it is just the normal person can differentiate between what is commonly real and unreal.
"In a sense, we are all hallucinating all the time," Dr. Ramachandran said. "What we call normal vision is our selecting the hallucination that best fits reality."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/14/sc...eyes.html?_r=0

Theism is based on the reification of an illusory God.
In my younger years I was quite convinced that Schizophrenia was primarily a physiological disorder caused by faulty interaction between the two hemispheres, cerebellum and medulla oblongota. Some physical agent disrupting the neurological pathways. resulting in a conscious awareness of the various segments of the neural system,which could/would be perceived as coming from outside sourcess. (My primary discipline in my working years was physiological psychology)
During that era I was quite convinced that would also explain the concept of conversation with a deity
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I would be VERY interested in reading "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti." Unfortunately I can't find an available copy to read. This is the sort of book which would support my hypothesis 'all prophets of old are likely suffer some kind of serious hallucinations and reify their illusions' and they are likely to share similar psychology to those who claim to be agents and messengers of God in the past and at present. So one should ask whether one's favorite messenger is in the same shoes or not -there is a high probability it could be the case.
I believe the link I posted in my post was to a site from which you could down load it in PDF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
So what so special about Muhammad? Anyone [in fact many in the present] to be the latest messenger of some old teachings and is God's representative.
All of the Prophets are equal (PBUT) Mankind messed up the message every single time. As one last opportunity the message was sent to Muammad(saws) with the warning

"This is it, it will not be sent again, no new prophets will be coming"

The Qur'an is the last time mankind will get any instructions from God(swt). We are now Swim or sink, no more life preservers are going to be tossed to us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree WikiIslam is not 100% reliable but they do have some substance and it is up to us to do further research to support the various points. When I quote from WikiIslam and similar sites, it is meant to be a quick draft subject to further research.

Here is another source of contradiction in the Quran with more detailed justifications.
Eleven Qur'an Contradictions
At the moment I I am quite tired and not up to addressing those 11 contradictions. At the Moment I will just give my opinion of the first one



1. Embryonic Sex Determination
One of the references on human reproduction which Muslims often quote from the Quran is verse 53:45-46. This is interpreted as a reference to the determination of sex at the fertilization stage itself. However, elsewhere, the Quran says that the sex of a developing embryo is determined well after the leech-like clot stage!

(53:45-46)
"That He did create the pairs - male and female from a sperm-drop* (nutfah) when lodged (in its place)"

(75:38-39)
"Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)? Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. And of him He made the sexes, male and female" **


I must be a bit dense today. I do not see where they contradict. especially when reading the Arabic. free from any translator's opinion. Even looking at several English Translations I fail to see where 53:45-46 and 75: 38-39 are mutually exclusive.

Quote:
53:45 (Asad) and that it is He who creates the two kinds - the male and the female
53:46 (Asad) out of a drop of sperm as it is poured forth

75:38 (Asad) and thereafter became a germ-cell - whereupon He created and formed in accordance with what was meant to be,
75:39 (Asad) and fashioned out of it the two sexes, the male and the female?
Quote:
53:45 (Y. Ali) That He did create in pairs,- male and female,
53:46 (Y. Ali) From a seed when lodged ;

75:38 (Y. Ali) Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did make and fashion in due proportion.
75:39 (Y. Ali) And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
Quote:
53:45 (Picktall) And that He createth the two spouses, the male and the female,
53:46 (Picktall) From a drop when it is poured forth;

75:38 (Picktall) Then he became a clot; then shaped and fashioned
75:39 (Picktall) And made of him a pair, the male and female.
Sounds like a good explanation of sexual determination at conception and development of physical morphology at a latter time.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:39 PM
 
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Quran 86:6-7 He is created from a drop emitted - proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.

Well, no, that's not where sperm comes from. The testicles are the sites of sperm production. Interesting that Allah could have made such a mistake.

"Sounds like a good explanation of sexual determination at conception and development of physical morphology at a latter time."

Not really. It is the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE here. We're talking all-powerful and all-knowing (except for that bit about where sperm forms and where the sun goes and a few hundred other things.)

Let's sum it up:
We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place. Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form, and then We made that form into a lump of flesh(leech-like clot), and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the best of creators.
- The CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE (and slightly egotistical)

OK, that's certainly something that Obstetricians can use! I'm sure that they all must carry a copy of the Quran everywhere since it is from the CREATOR OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. The Quran must be the #1 book used in medical school to say nothing of astronomy )...coming from the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE and containing all that advanced medical knowledge. Seriously, what could be more helpful? Direct from the guy who created it all!!
 
Old 06-14-2015, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Quran 86:6-7 He is created from a drop emitted - proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.

Well, no, that's not where sperm comes from. The testicles are the sites of sperm production. Interesting that Allah could have made such a mistake.

"Sounds like a good explanation of sexual determination at conception and development of physical morphology at a latter time."

Not really. It is the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE here. We're talking all-powerful and all-knowing (except for that bit about where sperm forms and where the sun goes and a few hundred other things.)

Let's sum it up:
We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place. Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form, and then We made that form into a lump of flesh(leech-like clot), and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the best of creators.
- The CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE (and slightly egotistical)

OK, that's certainly something that Obstetricians can use! I'm sure that they all must carry a copy of the Quran everywhere since it is from the CREATOR OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. The Quran must be the #1 book used in medical school to say nothing of astronomy )...coming from the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE and containing all that advanced medical knowledge. Seriously, what could be more helpful? Direct from the guy who created it all!!
86:6-7 He is created from a drop emitted - proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.

is not what b6: 6-7 says

It says

خُلِقَ مِن مَّاء دَافِقٍ (86:6)

يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ (86:7)

transliterated into English letters it reads as

Khuliqa min main dafiqin
Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttaraibi

a literal translation of main dafiqin is " a small amount of fluid moving under pressure.

a direct literal tanslation of waalttaraibi is "and Female pelvis"

A better interpretation of the 2 ayyats is:

86:6 (Asad) he has been created out of a seminal fluid

86:7 (Asad) issuing from between the loins [of man] and the pelvic arch [of woman].

Arabic is very difficult to translate into English as some words have no corresponding English word. In these 3 ayyats the words dafiqin and waalttaraibi have no corresponding English words.

dafiqin carries with it the concept of a small amount fo a moving liquid. waalttaraibi is 2 words the wa denotes the word "and" the word "alttaraibi" is an anatomical term denoting the female pelvis.
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