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Old 06-23-2015, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I do not agree with the term 'hate' that most Muslims attribute to sites that expose the truths about Islam [in part].

Some of the sites that expose [with evidences, proofs and justifications] the ugly truths about certain [not all] aspect [the violent ones -OP] of Islam may be over-zealous, some are very angry [because they have experienced the evil of Islam] and for other various rational reasons. I don't deny some are extreme and they should be condemned and corrected.
From what I noted and read of them, most of these so-called 'hate' sites are exposing the truths [albeit ugly] on certain [not all] aspect of Islam evidences, proofs and rational arguments.

IMO, most Muslims [and their apologists] labeled those sites with the term "hate" and "Islamophobic" to merely deflect and cover their own guilt of the truth that their 'Islam' do in fact has 'negative' elements as proven by the terrible evil acts committed by SOME Muslims who attempt to be truer Muslims.

Note a point from Aristotle on 'hate'.
As a serious issue and philosophical perspective, 'hate' is more appropriately tacked with things of human nature that cannot be changed easily.
For example 'race' [color] as represented by one's DNA which cannot be changed easily.
Religion is a matter that is open to choice and many has changed to other religion or got out of religion. Thus to critique a religion especially with facts, truths which are supported by proofs, evidence and rational argument, it is wrong to accuse those sites as 'hate' sites.
My error in using the word hate as a Generic description of all sites that oppose Islam.

However, I am an administrator on 2 Islamic sites that are in Arabic only and closed to Membership from non-Muslims (Exceptions being Homeland Security and FBI both of which have observers on every Islamic web site I am aware of) in their credit they do not take elaborite steps to hid their identity. There IPS does identify which agency they are affiliated with. Most of us actually welcome them as they do have first hand knowledge of what we discuss. And we do obey all laws.

The most frequently quoted sites that oppose Islam are connected to at least 1
of 3 people

Ali Sina (Which is a pseudonymn used by several staff members of one organization.

Sam Shamoun

Walid Shoebat

I urge you to do an independent search as to what you can find about each of them. Shoebat is well known to both the American and Israeli media I will just give links about what the non-Muslim media has to say about him

Shoebat Watch: "Ex-Terrorist" Fraud Sucking Up Taxpayer Money

Walid Shoebat Is A Fraud, A Wolf Who Promotes Hate Of Muslims

LiveLeak.com - Fake Ex-Terrorist Walid Shoebat is Exposed by CNN as a Fraud

What is Walid Shoebat's Motivation--Possibly the organization he founded

Christian Missionary Organizations & Jobs | Missionaries | Mission Work | Rescue Christians | www.rescuechristians.org

RescueChristians FAQ - Walid Shoebat


Those are the type of people I have found being the primary directing forces behind the sites opposed to Islam

Amother strategy becoming wide spread are fraudelent sites claiming to be Muslim and presenting a very false image of them.


A list ot the current identified ones can be found here:

https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress...islamic-sites/

Some of their strategies is presenting absolutely false quotes from the Qur'an and Ahadith along with fake fatwas.


I will agree that hate sites was a poor choice of words. But it does become difficult to maintain patience when constantly being bombarded by people proselytizing their beliefs or non-beliefs as the correct choice and that Muslims should abandon Islam.

A bit of trivia about Ali Sina-- I doubt if the name is an accident as both Ali and Sina are 2 of the most respected people in Islamic History.

The First Child to Accept Islam: Ali ibn Abi Talib - Historical Biographies - Reading Islam - OnIslam.net

Ibn Sina
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 06-23-2015 at 08:51 PM..

 
Old 06-23-2015, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The most frequently quoted sites that oppose Islam are connected to at least 1
of 3 people

Ali Sina (Which is a pseudonymn used by several staff members of one organization.
Sam Shamoun
Walid Shoebat
I am familiar with Ali Sina and Sam Shamoun.
I admit there may be some rhetoric from them and Ali Sina views are very forceful and aggressive for whatever the reason. However, since I have done extensive research on the Quran, I can confirm what they have been saying [the main gist] is not far off from the message of the Quran.

I don't think any one can catch Ali Sina and Sam Shamoun had been deliberatly lying, twisting and misleading about the Quran. Show proofs on this? The point is the Quran is open to many possible interpretations even by Muslim scholars. So if we analyze their views there is likely truths from certain perspective.

As for Walid Shoebat, I have not read much of his writings. I will do more research about his status. Another point is, even if he had lied about his status and experience, did he lie and use the Quran deceptively? I will research and find out.

I have read many other countering-Islam sites, e.g. Robert Spencer, The Religion of Peace, and others and so far I have not come across any sites that blatantly lie and misrepresent the Quran. At most they may have interpret say 'Friend' [awliyaa =allies, supporter, guardian] literally as conventional 'friendship' but this can be easily corrected, nevertheless the inherent negativity of 'us versus them' is still there.

The general attitude of most Muslims are to shut off any critique of the Quran by labeling those who critique as "haters," Islamophobic and other derogatory terms when in truth there is something seriously very wrong from the Quran [in part not whole] itself that need to be addressed by Muslims and humanity. It is definitely painful to hear of any factual negativity relating [in part not whole] to one beliefs but one must have the basic humanity dignity to face the truth and address whatever is necessary.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-23-2015 at 10:19 PM..
 
Old 06-23-2015, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I urge you to do an independent search as to what you can find about each of them. Shoebat is well known to both the American and Israeli media I will just give links about what the non-Muslim media has to say about him

Shoebat Watch: "Ex-Terrorist" Fraud Sucking Up Taxpayer Money

Walid Shoebat Is A Fraud, A Wolf Who Promotes Hate Of Muslims

LiveLeak.com - Fake Ex-Terrorist Walid Shoebat is Exposed by CNN as a Fraud

What is Walid Shoebat's Motivation--Possibly the organization he founded

Christian Missionary Organizations & Jobs | Missionaries | Mission Work | Rescue Christians | www.rescuechristians.org

RescueChristians FAQ - Walid Shoebat
I access Walid Shoebat site and he disputed the above claims.
Evidence of My Credentials - Walid Shoebat


Quote:
Everything I stated is true. These attempts to discredit my story came through
my Muslim family and relatives who are either involved in aiding and abetting
terrorism, financial terrorism, or actual bombings in Israel. Here they are case
by case:
Since you accuse him of the above, I think it is only fair you read his justifications.

So who is right and who is wrong.

I will research further to find out what he wrote and whether he is deceptive.

It will be easier if you can direct me to any of his deceptive writings.
 
Old 06-23-2015, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I access Walid Shoebat site and he disputed the above claims.
Evidence of My Credentials - Walid Shoebat




Since you accuse him of the above, I think it is only fair you read his justifications.

So who is right and who is wrong.

I will research further to find out what he wrote and whether he is deceptive.

It will be easier if you can direct me to any of his deceptive writings.
I am not aware of much of Shoebat's writings he gained his reputation as a lecturere and as an "Expert" in terrorism related his experiences as a terrorist to police departments, Homeland security etc.

There is no evidence he ever was a terrorist and the Police in Israel verify they have no records of the Terrorist attacks he claimed to have carried out

Quote:
The paper described Shoebat as a self-proclaimed "former Islamic terrorist" who said that Islam was a "satanic cult" and who told the crowd how he eventually accepted Jesus into his heart. However, Shoebat's claim to have bombed Bank Leumi in Bethlehem is rejected by members of his family who still live in the area, and Bank Leumi says it has no record of such an attack ever taking place. His relatives, members of the Shoebat family, are mystified by the notion of "Walid Shoebat" being an assumed name. And the Walid Shoebat Foundation's working process is less than transparent, with Shoebat's claim that it is registered as a charity in the state of Pennsylvania being denied by the Pennsylvania State Attorney's Office. Shoebat's claim to have been a terrorist rests on his account of the purported bombing of Bank Leumi. But after checking its files, the bank said it had no record of an attack on its Bethlehem branch anywhere in the relevant 1977-79 period. Shoebat told The Jerusalem Post that this could be because the bank building was robustly protected with steel and that the attack may have caused little damage.
The Palestinian 'terrorist' turned Zionist - Features - Jerusalem Post

From the same article Shoebat claims that is not his real name and he uses an alias out of protection. But his family verifies Walid Shoebat is his actual name.

Quote:
Shoebat's Web site says his is an assumed name, used to protect him from reprisal attacks by his former terror chiefs, whom he says have put a $10 million price on his head.

His relatives, members of the Shoebat family, are mystified by the notion of "Walid Shoebat" being an assumed name. And the Walid Shoebat Foundation's working process is less than transparent, with Shoebat's claim that it is registered as a charity in the state of Pennsylvania being denied by the Pennsylvania State Attorney's Office.
A bit of trivia are the battles between Shoebat and Sam Shamoun. each frequently accuses the other of being a fraud. and often present pretty good evidence

Answering Judaism: What does the Shoebat say? A Challenge from Sam Shamoun
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am not aware of much of Shoebat's writings he gained his reputation as a lecturere and as an "Expert" in terrorism related his experiences as a terrorist to police departments, Homeland security etc.

There is no evidence he ever was a terrorist and the Police in Israel verify they have no records of the Terrorist attacks he claimed to have carried out


The Palestinian 'terrorist' turned Zionist - Features - Jerusalem Post

From the same article Shoebat claims that is not his real name and he uses an alias out of protection. But his family verifies Walid Shoebat is his actual name.


A bit of trivia are the battles between Shoebat and Sam Shamoun. each frequently accuses the other of being a fraud. and often present pretty good evidence

Answering Judaism: What does the Shoebat say? A Challenge from Sam Shamoun
I tried to find out what Shoebat wrote but could not find any that is available easily.

In any case, I am not that interested in the background but what they say about the Quran and the respective references they provide which I can easily counter check myself.
Since Shoebat has nothing to offer, I will give him a pass.
 
Old 06-23-2015, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Ali Sina is a bit more slippery. He professes to be an Muslims turned atheist, but his writings often show a lack of understanding Islam.

A few things I found

Quote:
DR ALI SINA EXPOSED

From: Truth teller
Date: 01 Mar 2001
Time: 11:32:08
Remote Name: 195.92.67.71

Comments

Dr Ali Sina is a fraud! - he is an iranian right and therefore a shia - why then is he quoting from SUNNI hadith books like Bukhari and Abu Dawud which Shia utterly reject as false!! - if he grew up in iran as he claims or was taught islam by shia he never would have been taught from these books - they are not available- why doesnt he quote from Al-Kafi or shia hadith books/texts??? - he takes from a translation of the quran by a wahaabi Dr Muhsin Khan - no shia would do this -wahabbi hate shia and think they are kafir!!! - the translations of bukhari and muhsin khan quran are readily available in the west - so what this kaffir has done is read them and then pretend to be a muslim - but he gets it completely wrong!!!
When he says "I could not believe what i read in bukhari" he is correct - since no shia believes what is in bukhari is correct!!!
He narrates hadith from people who shias consider to be untrusthworthy like Aisha - so how can this be a true hadith?? Also many of the hadith in Bukhari and Abu Dawud are considered weak by many later SUNNI scholars!! - how does he know he is not quoting a weak or forged hadith?????
He narrates hadith from Umar!! - Shias HATE and curse Umar - he quotes hadith from Abu Huraira - shiites reject ALL his hadith - he was a supporter of Muawiya!!
He says islam demands blind faith - but there are over 60 verses telling us to use our reason- if he is an islamic expert why doesnt he know this!!
He makes terrible basic mistakes in his work that only a non-muslim or an amazingly ignorant muslim could make - Maria was not Hafsa's maidsrvant!! The Prophet never was married to 20 wives, his wives were not all young except 2 as he claims quite the opposite!! His wifes uncle was not called Abu Nifel but waraqa
Also his name is false - I have never met a persian with the surname "Sina" - what the non-Muslim who wrote this has done is take the first and last names from the name of the great persian scientist Abu Ali al-Husain ibn Abdallah ibn Sina (Avicenna) - but they do not know that sina is not ever used as a surname - it was ibn sina (son of sina's) fathers name - what arabs call kunya!! - ibn sina was also known as a freethinker as ali sina wishes to be known - excpet he had the brains to cover he tracks and not make so many glaring mistakes!!!
He also cannot make up his mind - one minute he is called the Prophet a Prophet and writing (pbuh) peace be upon him after his name - the next line he is slandering and calling him a fraud and a murderer!!!
I have met many Muslims who say bad things about islam, that it is backward etc, and dont follow it - but they would never use such foul language about the Prophet (pbuh)
It is interesting that some of his arguments (such as muslims only proof that islam is true is based on having 1 billion followers) are exact replicates of what hindu polemists against islam say
DR ALI SINA EXPOSED

Quote:
Faith Freedom authors together with Ali Sina have been caught of the following:

Lying on several occasions
Usage of foul language throughout
Using comments made by Muslims by editing them to show only the bad side
Usage of culture based crimes to somehow point that this is related to Islam.
Spreading hatred between all Christians, Jews, Muslims
Claiming to uphold Human Rights and yet going against his own principles.
Lately publishing his book trying to desperately prove Muhammad (Pbuh) was a terrible person and completely ignoring the fact that many have proven him wrong.
Who is Ali Sina - Page 1
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I tried to find out what Shoebat wrote but could not find any that is available easily.

In any case, I am not that interested in the background but what they say about the Quran and the respective references they provide which I can easily counter check myself.
Since Shoebat has nothing to offer, I will give him a pass.
By any chance can you read French or Spanish? both are more accurate translations of Arabic than English or German are.

I speak a couple languages and find English the most difficult to translate Arabic into. Translations into English are basically interpretations and as such heabily reflect the opinion of the translator.

Because of close associations with Arabs the French language has developed many Arab concepts and more Arabic words can be translated directly to French. Arabic basically does not translate into English it has to be interpreted, which is always an opinion.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Ali Sina is a bit more slippery. He professes to be an Muslims turned atheist, but his writings often show a lack of understanding Islam.

A few things I found


DR ALI SINA EXPOSED


Who is Ali Sina - Page 1
Ali is now an agnostic. It is only natural his opponents will say all sorts of negative thing about him to discredit him. I do not see this is an issue unless there is clear cut proof the person is really a con, even then I am not so concern about the person but rather the actual texts.

I read a lot of Ali Sina's articles and debates earlier on. Sina may have his own interpretations but what he has done intellectually is to bring forth a very wide subject matters from the Quran, Hadiths and Sira which a non-Muslims are not aware of at all if not for him some years ago. I may not agree with his views, e.g. that Aisha was "raped" but the fact that a 50+ years engaging with a 6-9 years old is very telling from a psychological point of view regardless of whatever the excuses. Not every one has such neural circuits even 1500 years ago the average person do have a sense of basic moral compass.

Regardless of what Ali Sina's personal interpretations and views he may have, the critical point is he brought forth the original verses verbatim from various quran and hadiths. I don't think he changed them deliberately to suit his point.

Anyway, at his point I have done my own thorough readings [6 months of full time] of the Quran with detailed analysis thus I do not have to depend on others to quote me verses from the Quran but I am still interested in various perspectives.
 
Old 06-24-2015, 01:20 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
By any chance can you read French or Spanish? both are more accurate translations of Arabic than English or German are.

I speak a couple languages and find English the most difficult to translate Arabic into. Translations into English are basically interpretations and as such heabily reflect the opinion of the translator.

Because of close associations with Arabs the French language has developed many Arab concepts and more Arabic words can be translated directly to French. Arabic basically does not translate into English it has to be interpreted, which is always an opinion.
All translations obviously has their limitations.

Btw, there is an issue with the Arabic used in the Quran and the Arabic used in the current Quran was not the one used during Muhammad's time. There are ongoing debates on this issue. There are also issues of whether the historical Muhammad existed or not.

What is critical imo is not the language but rather the equation of the Quran [& related texts], Muslims and their impact to humanity in the future. To understand this equation effectively what is relevant is the hermeneutical approach using a wide range of knowledge. I have found a model-pattern and system to facilitate the reading and understand the Quran from an objective perspective.

For example, if you understand the digestive system, nutrition and its related system you can easily understand food consumption anywhere in the world regardless of how they grow, prepare and eat their food. This is because there is are generic system and neural circuitry related to issues that are common to all humans.

Thus as far as the Spirituality-Religion is concern what we need is to understand the generic system within humans to understand all spiritualities and religions in the world. So I have no issue understanding Islam, the Quran, Muhammad and its related matter from this perspective.

I have a reasonable foundation is the studies of spiritualities and religion, philosophy (Western and Eastern) Science - many types and has special interests in neuroscience and psychology related to spirituality and religions plus many other fields of knowledge. I am not a Buddhist per-se but I have very extensive knowledge on Buddhism and it is the English translations that has helped me. As not an expert in language learning the original language of the Sutra would be a hindrance.

As such these knowledge would cover the gap for not knowing French and Spanish.
 
Old 06-24-2015, 05:21 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Woodrow,

Here is an article from Ali Sina making extensive references to the Quran.
Can you counter him on this on his usage of the verses?

Who is Deaf, Dumb and Blind? | Faithfreedom.org
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