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Old 06-29-2015, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I forgot to mention there are some Christians that accept Muhammad(swt) as being a true Prophet.


Muhammad in the Eyes of Christian Scholars - Comparative Religion - Reading Islam - OnIslam.net

Point being,

As the vast majority of people, Muslim and non-Muslin, that follow the Qur'an and the Teachings of Muhammad(swt) are very peaceful, there is no justification for the claim Islam promotes violence.
I have researched thoroughly and noted 55% of the 6236 verses in the Quran contain antagonistic and evil elements [in various degrees] against the Kuffar.
The point is, these 55% of negatives against the Kuffar in very derogatory terms in the Quran are an imperative part of the whole of the Quran.

Why imperative?
It is because it is stated in the Quran, Allah had delivered a perfect Quran via Gabriel to Muhammad. In addition the Quran as words of Allah is immutable, i.e. cannot be changed.

Since those 55% of antagonistic and evil laden are in fact inside the immutable Quran,
plus the fact that SOME Muslims sincerely obey those negative verses that result in a perverted ideology that commit terrible violence and evil around the word,
we can conclude Islam [in part of an imperative whole] do promote violence via SOME Muslims.

Btw, I have always insist 90% of Muslims are good people and I can say 99% are reasonably good.

 
Old 06-29-2015, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From the perspective of the Philosophy, neuroscience, neuropsychology of religion and spirituality, I believe the Sufi practices are of a higher order of spirituality that is much higher than the typical Sunni and those of other Madhabs.

I believe when we scan the brain activities [using fMRI, etc.] during practices of spirituality, my hypothesis is the Sufi will trigger the higher faculties of the human brain while the typical Sunni and the likes will be active in the lower limbic and primal parts of the brain. My hypothesis is based on the knowledge and practices they are involved in.

I don't see veneration of Saints as an issue at all. It is just like all Scientists in the field of Physics having great respect and adoration for Einstein and many greats because they brought forth great knowledge that is beneficial to mankind. These Sufi saints are respected because they has brought forward advance spiritual knowledge that are positive to the Sufis. The caution is to ensure followers should not be too zealous and avoid those saints [there will be such] who condone violence and evils.

If music be the food of love, play on.......
Rhythm [heart beat] is evident in everything and so basic to humanity, so it is very unfortunate you went off key on it. One will be very handicapped in spirituality if one have an aversion for music.
The dervish form dhikr is one form of moving meditation [like tai chi]. It may be an optimal method to many if there are no alternatives. Such meditation is not about getting in touch with a God but rather it assist in unstrapping the inherent, necessary and unavoidable beastly [animality in the lower brain] module straightjacket in the brain to facilitate the unfolding of the higher spiritual neurons in us.
Such practices in various forms are common within all the major Eastern religions.

The average Sunni methods & practices focused primarily on the mid-limbic and lower primal brain in terms of spirituality. This is evident from the composition Quran. This is the reason why the average Sunni [not you] has very low self-esteem and are ultra sensitive to the slightest threats [often a misperception] and response like cornered wounded animals.
The Sufis while leveraging on the Quran, ignore move away from the violent and evil elements and focus on core spirituality.

There are positives from the Hadith, however, from what I read about the Hadiths that are related to Aisha, the net result is negative in a sense that they end up insulting Islam and the prophet. Example note this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-KgmCbp40 and many of Sheikh al-Habib's video.

Also note the Adult Suckling hadith re Aisha.

The Hadiths are merely guides ant they carry a confidence level of credibility at most 20% to the truths of the Quran.
typically the average non-English speaking Muslim will never read the Ahadith.

Most Ahadith have never been printed, except in Arabic. Most Muslims do not read any Arabic except the Qur'an. While having the ability to read Arabic faciitates in reading the Qur'an knowing Qur'anic Arabic is of no help in reading colloquial Arabic.The Ahadith are written in 7th and 8th Century Arabic and not Qur'anic Arabic.

There are MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) translations of the Ahadith. However they are quite expensive. I have Bukhari in MSA it is in 18 volumes and cost me about $200. English translations are low priced and can be downloaded online for free. but most Muslims do not speak English. I have not found the Ahadith in any languages except Arabic and English. I am certain they exist but I doubt if they are common.

The sunnah and Sira are not specifically written out and one has to interpolate it from ahadith, Early Islamic literature including Rumi, National traditions, Madhabs and National traditions. As you have noticed there is no 100$ agreement among us as to which Ahadith are accepted.

Some Muslims are Hadith rejectors and do not consider any to be authenticate. Sunni accept the
works of 7 scholars as Ahadith but the Authenticity and reliability varying from high to questionable. Bukhari and Muslim are the only compilations being Shahih , meaning all in the compilations having high authenticity and reliability.

Muslim was a student and apprentice to Bukahri, his Compilation came almost directly from Bukhari the main diffences being the method of categorizing, they each used different categories. Also Muslim does not contain all of Bukhari and has some not found in Bukhari.

the other 5 compilations contain ahadith that Bukhari and Muslim were not able to authenticate or determine the reliability. some of them are quite questionable. The Shi'ite accept 12 Compilations but reject Bukhari. Bukhari is the only compilation that contains the Narrations by Aisha.

Point being there are differences among Muslim as to what constitutes Hadith, Sunnah and Sira.
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Old 06-30-2015, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
typically the average non-English speaking Muslim will never read the Ahadith.

Point being there are differences among Muslim as to what constitutes Hadith, Sunnah and Sira.
In the past I have read but have never given serious attention to the Quran.

Now that the terrible evils from SOME Muslims are getting worse and more worse, I have decided to sacrifice precious time to be more well versed with the Quran to get to the actual truths beyond the excuses of Muslims to defend their support for the violence and evils in the Quran or avoidance of it.

I would recommend all non-Muslims to read the Quran seriously with intellectual credibility and objectivity to understand the mind of the various types of Muslims. To facilitate an easier understanding of what the Quran is all about, there should be easy guidelines on how to read the Quran effectively.

I would not recommend any non-Muslims [unless they have a personal interest to do so] to read the Hadiths as it is too voluminous and a waste of time. The average person can rely on those who comment on the Hadiths and verify to the specific quotes given.

My point is when one has thoroughly understood the Quran and the mechanics behind it, one can easily understand any Hadiths, as for a hadith to be truly valid it has to cross reference back to the Quran.
Often one will find a hadith will expound certain verses in the Quran but with exaggerations and corruption as an excuse to made the Quran simpler to understand.

To establish greater credibility one should read the Quran within the perspective of taking into account the whole history of humanity as far as one can trace to the emergence of humans. I had mentioned earlier the following conditions;

To be effective one should read a verse the Quran within the context;
1. Relate each verse to the other verses that are related to the main idea.
2. Relate each verse in the whole chapter
3. Relate each verse to the whole of the Quran
4. Relate each verse to the history of the Quran, Muhammad and the surrounding circumstances.
5. Relate each verse to the philosophy of religion
- the philosophy and psychology of Messiah_ship.
6. Relate each verse to the human nature and psychology [especially neuro-psychology]
7. Relate each verse to the whole existence and history of humanity and anthropology, etc.
8. Relate each verse to the Universe
9. Relate each verse to whatever is relevant.
 
Old 06-30-2015, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the past I have read but have never given serious attention to the Quran.

Now that the terrible evils from SOME Muslims are getting worse and more worse, I have decided to sacrifice precious time to be more well versed with the Quran to get to the actual truths beyond the excuses of Muslims to defend their support for the violence and evils in the Quran or avoidance of it.

I would recommend all non-Muslims to read the Quran seriously with intellectual credibility and objectivity to understand the mind of the various types of Muslims. To facilitate an easier understanding of what the Quran is all about, there should be easy guidelines on how to read the Quran effectively.

I would not recommend any non-Muslims [unless they have a personal interest to do so] to read the Hadiths as it is too voluminous and a waste of time. The average person can rely on those who comment on the Hadiths and verify to the specific quotes given.

My point is when one has thoroughly understood the Quran and the mechanics behind it, one can easily understand any Hadiths, as for a hadith to be truly valid it has to cross reference back to the Quran.
Often one will find a hadith will expound certain verses in the Quran but with exaggerations and corruption as an excuse to made the Quran simpler to understand.

To establish greater credibility one should read the Quran within the perspective of taking into account the whole history of humanity as far as one can trace to the emergence of humans. I had mentioned earlier the following conditions;

To be effective one should read a verse the Quran within the context;
1. Relate each verse to the other verses that are related to the main idea.
2. Relate each verse in the whole chapter
3. Relate each verse to the whole of the Quran
4. Relate each verse to the history of the Quran, Muhammad and the surrounding circumstances.
5. Relate each verse to the philosophy of religion
- the philosophy and psychology of Messiah_ship.
6. Relate each verse to the human nature and psychology [especially neuro-psychology]
7. Relate each verse to the whole existence and history of humanity and anthropology, etc.
8. Relate each verse to the Universe
9. Relate each verse to whatever is relevant.
That is very good advice and I extend that to all texts not just the Qur'an or other religious texts. Excellent plan to help all people verify all things to the best of theor ability.
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Old 06-30-2015, 03:52 PM
 
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Continuum, great post! If you have time, could you walk us through an example of your 9 steps using an example from the Quran and hadiths? I use steps 1 - 4 regularly, but would like to see how you apply steps 5 - 9.

It would also be interesting to see Woodrow LI work through steps 1 - 9, using the same example from the Quran and hadiths.
 
Old 06-30-2015, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the past I have read but have never given serious attention to the Quran.

Now that the terrible evils from SOME Muslims are getting worse and more worse, I have decided to sacrifice precious time to be more well versed with the Quran to get to the actual truths beyond the excuses of Muslims to defend their support for the violence and evils in the Quran or avoidance of it.

I would recommend all non-Muslims to read the Quran seriously with intellectual credibility and objectivity to understand the mind of the various types of Muslims. To facilitate an easier understanding of what the Quran is all about, there should be easy guidelines on how to read the Quran effectively.

I would not recommend any non-Muslims [unless they have a personal interest to do so] to read the Hadiths as it is too voluminous and a waste of time. The average person can rely on those who comment on the Hadiths and verify to the specific quotes given.

My point is when one has thoroughly understood the Quran and the mechanics behind it, one can easily understand any Hadiths, as for a hadith to be truly valid it has to cross reference back to the Quran.
Often one will find a hadith will expound certain verses in the Quran but with exaggerations and corruption as an excuse to made the Quran simpler to understand.

To establish greater credibility one should read the Quran within the perspective of taking into account the whole history of humanity as far as one can trace to the emergence of humans. I had mentioned earlier the following conditions;

To be effective one should read a verse the Quran within the context;
1. Relate each verse to the other verses that are related to the main idea.
2. Relate each verse in the whole chapter
3. Relate each verse to the whole of the Quran
4. Relate each verse to the history of the Quran, Muhammad and the surrounding circumstances.
5. Relate each verse to the philosophy of religion
- the philosophy and psychology of Messiah_ship.
6. Relate each verse to the human nature and psychology [especially neuro-psychology]
7. Relate each verse to the whole existence and history of humanity and anthropology, etc.
8. Relate each verse to the Universe
9. Relate each verse to whatever is relevant.
One point I wish to point out that some people may not be aware of. While Many people translate Surah as chapter, they more closely resemble individual books and some of the longer ones cotntain multiple unrelated discoures. This is particulary true for Surat (plural for Surah) 2-17. One needs to be mindful that in the longer Surat each discourse corresponds very close to the English concept of Chapter.

To keep this in the concept of English terminology I believe it is best to consider each Surah as a separate independent book and each discourse within a Surah as a chapter.
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Old 06-30-2015, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Continuum, great post! If you have time, could you walk us through an example of your 9 steps using an example from the Quran and hadiths? I use steps 1 - 4 regularly, but would like to see how you apply steps 5 - 9.

It would also be interesting to see Woodrow LI work through steps 1 - 9, using the same example from the Quran and hadiths.
1. Relate each verse to the other verses that are related to the main idea.
2. Relate each verse in the whole chapter
3. Relate each verse to the whole of the Quran
4. Relate each verse to the history of the Quran, Muhammad and the surrounding circumstances.
5. Relate each verse to the philosophy of religion
- the philosophy and psychology of Messiah_ship.
6. Relate each verse to the human nature and psychology [especially neuro-psychology]
7. Relate each verse to the whole existence and history of humanity and anthropology, etc.
8. Relate each verse to the Universe
9. Relate each verse to whatever is relevant.
The series of 1-9 is merely a crude list, in reality I would have covered more than 50 perspectives and many other sub-perspectives.

I am doing the above like I am cycling, i.e. spontaneously and unconsciously. Thus for me to put the whole process in formal writing is quite a task at present. However, I like the idea and will prepare one in time by finding a verse that would be a good example.

However, roughly;
As I had claimed [proofs and justifications on hand] there are 55% [3427 to be precise -so far] of verses that are negative and antagonistic to the kuffar [a very derogatory term for infidels, unbelievers, disbeliever, non-Muslims]. It is from the totality of these verses plus the sword verses that combine to inspire SOME zealous Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on the kuffar.

When one read any of these 3427 verses, e.g. [mine]
Pickthall 33:61. Accursed, they [infidels] will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.

The above verse should be read within itetms 1-4 to get the context.

The question is why the existent of such a violent verse in a holy text [which should not contain any violence verse]. This has to be researched and deliberated under 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9.

Within 5-9, there is no real God [8 - philosophy of theism] but it is invented by humans [5,6]. In this case, I would attribute the Quran to purely a work by Muhammad for his personal psychological reason [5 messiah-hood and 6].
As I had mentioned and quoted with links before, there is a vast amount of research showing how some humans experienced altered states of consciousness and claimed themselves to be agent of God, messiah, etc. Many of these people has a range of personality disorders. From here one can research into psychology, neuro-psychology, neuroscience, anthropology, history of religion, etc. of the issue.

Muhammad, I believe it is plausible to be one of the above type of people.
Why Muhammad came up with such verses with enmity, hostility, abomination for the Jews, Christian, and Meccan idolators and other non-Muslims is due to their rejection and mockery of his claim as a messiah and to establish a religion [5,7].

Muhammad was very sensitive and like Hitler [due to some personal negative encounters and incident with Jews] took vengeance and blast his rage on the Jews, Christians and idolaters. It is unfortunate because Muhammad's personal vengeance is embedded as the immutable words of God which SOME Muslims got infected with such negative spirit and ethos.

From the above we need to research into the psychology and neuropsychology of those 'SOME' evil prone Muslims who are zealous and bigoted and why they have such evil proclivities. Thus one has to cover the philosophy of 'EVIL' and the full range of its associated knowledge within 5-9.

On top of the above we have to cover and compare the issue to the whole of humanity. Why is Islam so unique amongst all the other religions? The Abrahamics may not agree with the theory of evolution and its effects, but we have to take this into account as well.

I will keep-in-view to prepare a more thorough presentation for a sake of greater intellectual integrity and coverage. Nevertheless if you read my posts you find bits of the above elements albeit not in a complete package.
 
Old 07-01-2015, 04:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Peace continuum.

Ayyat 33:61 is a good choice.

To please juju33312 I will atempt respond in accordance wit your formulas. However I dislike nearly all
English translations, French is much closer to the Arabc. However I find Asad to be acceptable so I am using his translation


I do concur steps 1-4 will give the context



1. Relate each verse to the other verses that are related to the main idea.
2. Relate each verse in the whole chapter
3. Relate each verse to the whole of the Quran
4. Relate each verse to the history of the Quran, Muhammad and the surrounding circumstances.

Going back wards

This particular Surah was revealed 2 years after after the Battle of Uhud and During the Battle of the Trench
During the Month of Shawwal in the year AH 5
One needs to take in the conditions at the time. There was reasonable Peace in Medinah except the Arab tribes had united in an effort to destroy Muhahammad(saws) and the City of Medinah, which was a very small city at the time. basically a desert oasis.
It was also an era during which Social reform of the Muslims was taking place. Rules and regulations were being established



Surah 39 was revealed in 9 discourses with 59-72 being the final discourse (chapter) of the Surah these 13 ayyat compose a single thought and should be read together

33:59 (Asad) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all [other] believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments [when in public]: this will be more con*ducive to their being recognized [as decent women] and not annoyed. But [withal,] God is indeed much- forgiving, a dispenser of grace!


33:60 (Asad) THUS IT IS: if the hypocrites, and they in whose hearts is disease, and they who, by spreading false rumours, would cause disturbances in the City desist not . We shall indeed give thee mastery over them, and then they will not remain thy neighbours in this for more than a little while:

33:61 (Asad) bereft of God’s grace, they shall be seized wherever they may be found, and slain one and all.

33:62 (Asad) Such has been God’s way with those who passed away aforetime - and never wilt thou find any change in God’s way!


33:63 (Asad) PEOPLE will ask thee about the Last Hour. Say: “Knowledge thereof rests with God alone; yet for all thou knowest, the Last Hour may well be near!”

33:64 (Asad) Verily, God has rejected the deniers of the truth, and has readied for them a blazing fire,

33:65 (Asad) therein to abide beyond the count of time: no protec*tor will they find, and none to bring them succour.

33:66 (Asad) On the Day when their faces shall be tossed about in the fire, they will exclaim, “Oh, would that we had paid heed unto God, and paid heed unto the Apostle!”

33:67 (Asad) And they will say: “O our Sustainer! Behold, we paid heed unto our leaders and our great men, and it is they who have led us astray from the right path!

33:68 (Asad) O our Sustainer! Give them double suffering, and banish them utterly from Thy grace!” [84]

33:69 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Be not like those who gave offence to Moses, and God showed him to be innocent of whatever they alleged for of great honour was he in the sight of God.

33:70 (Asad) O you who have attained to faith! Remain conscious of God, and speak with a will to bring out what is just and true -

33:71 (Asad) [whereupon] He will cause your deeds to be virtuous, and will forgive you your sins. And whoever pays heed unto God and His Apostle has already attained to a mighty triumph.

33:72 (Asad) Verily, We did offer the trust to the heavens, and the earth, and the mountains: but they refused to bear it because they were afraid of it. Yet man took it up -for, verily, he has always been prone to be most wicked, most foolish.

33:73 (Asad) that God imposes suffering on the hypocrites, both men and women, as well as on the men and women who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him. And [so, too, it is] that God turns in His mercy unto the believing men and believing women: for God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!


A short summation it is the beginning of social reform. There will be some among them that claim to be Muslims but are hypocrites and Allaah(saws) will protect the Muslims from them. as he has always protected the Believers in the past (Remeber a good percentage of the Muslims were Jews and Familiar with Jewish Scripture. Islam does not deny that the Jews worshiped the God(swt) of Abraham and therefore performed Islam in their worship.
ayyats 61-63 are a reminder that God(swt) protected the believers in the past.

33:61 (Asad) bereft of God’s grace, they shall be seized wherever they may be found, and slain one and all.

33:62 (Asad) Such has been God’s way with those who [sinned in like manner and] passed away aforetime - and never wilt thou find any change in God’s way!

33:63 (Asad) PEOPLE will ask thee about the Last Hour. Say: “Knowledge thereof rests with God alone; yet for all thou knowest, the Last Hour may well be near!”

The Qur'an is not new it is the same message that was revealed in the Torah. In relating 33: 61 to steps 1-4 what we are looking at is the varous ways God(swt) has protected believers. Not Just in the Qur'an but in past scriptures also. At this point how does 31 relate to the Discourse 59-72-- It is a statement that God(swt) will protect the Believers from Hypocrites that Attempt to lead believers astray.
This relates to the Full Surah33 in that we are told believers will have unique set of quidlines that will guide them and that hypocrites that attempt to disrupt them from within will be punished by God(swt)

(Pausing here to catch my breath plus I need some sleep)
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Old 07-01-2015, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
To please juju33312 I will atempt respond in accordance wit your formulas. However I dislike nearly all
English translations, French is much closer to the Arabic. However I find Asad to be acceptable so I am using his translation
I don't think you answered juju33312's question, i.e.
It would also be interesting to see Woodrow LI work through steps 1 - 9, using the same example from the Quran and hadiths.
You only attempted steps 1-4. I think juju33312 [me too] is more interested in how you would deal with steps 5-9.

Even then I don't see your interpretation using step 1-4 on 33:61 as accurate but rather is very bias, i.e. due to Confirmation Bias and attentive blindness.

Btw, you are interpreting those verses based on faith [i.e. without reason nor proofs] therefore likely to compromise the truth [soteriologically bias] while I am doing it rationally and objectively.


Quote:
Going back wards
This particular Surah [33:61] was revealed 2 years after after the Battle of Uhud and During the Battle of the Trench
During the Month of Shawwal in the year AH 5
One needs to take in the conditions at the time. There was reasonable Peace in Medinah except the Arab tribes had united in an effort to destroy Muhahammad(saws) and the City of Medinah, which was a very small city at the time. basically a desert oasis.
It was also an era during which Social reform of the Muslims was taking place. Rules and regulations were being established.
Assuming we agree to the historical timing, we need to apply the psychology of Messiah-hood, the psychology of cultism. Then we need to understand within these elements how did they end up with wars on the kuffar/infidels. Note this require quite complex details to explain.

The other point is, there are good justified reasons why the Arabs wanted to attack Muhammad who they say as gangster like, a 'madman' [e.g. 34:8] and a fake.
Btw, IF Muhammad did not experience some sort of altered consciousness and started to claim he was an agent of God, then the Meccan, Jews, Christians and others would have lived peacefully and harmoniously then.
It was Muhammad who started the tit-for-tat and sabre-battling and overcame the weaker Meccans because he was very charged, aggresive and used terror and violence. This relate to step 4 & 5.

Quote:
Surah 39 [33 sic] was revealed in 9 discourses with 59-72 being the final discourse (chapter) of the Surah these 13 ayyat compose a single thought and should be read together
Tracing back to the psychology of Messiah-hood and the psychology of Muhammad, Surah 33 was a just-in-time made to order revelation to cover up his slander in marrying Zainab the wife of his son [adopted]. This has something to do with the Morality of the person and how could God [if it is real] endorsed such an act.


Quote:
33:59 (Asad) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all [other] believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments [when in public]: this will be more conducive to their being recognized [as decent women] and not annoyed. But [withal,] God is indeed much- forgiving, a dispenser of grace!
This verse is not directly related to 33:60. IMO, this has more to do with M was titillated after seeing a partial exposed Zainab to the extent he came up with a revelation [God's Law] to facilitate in getting his son divorce his wife and making it legal for M to marry his son's wife.
If you view it objectively and morally, there is something fishy here.
Step 4 & 5 is relevant to this verse.


Quote:
33:60 (Asad) THUS IT IS: if the hypocrites, and they in whose hearts is disease, and they who, by spreading false rumours, would cause disturbances in the City desist not . We shall indeed give thee mastery over them, and then they will not remain thy neighbours in this for more than a little while:
33:61 (Asad) bereft of God’s grace, they shall be seized wherever they may be found, and slain one and all.
33:62 (Asad) Such has been God’s way with those who passed away aforetime - and never wilt thou find any change in God’s way!
33:61 is in context with 60-62 and is ambiguous and can stand alone. The 'spreading of false rumours' is more like those talk of the town 'rumours' and slander about the Zainab affair and scandal within the same chapter 33. Muhammad used 33:61-62 as a subtle threats on those who slander him regarding the scandal he created himself out of his sexual psychology.

Historically [step 4] Chapter 33 is related to the more violent Medinian phase. In perspective to the whole of the Quran and history of Muhammad, I am sure you will note Muhammad's psychology has changed by AH 5.
In the earlier phases, he declared himself to be a mild warner, preacher, bringer of good tidings and has no business [not warder] in the life of others.
By AH5 note the change in his psychology which was harsh, violent, full of terror and acting as a war general rather than a religious preachers.
To blame the Meccan is a farce, Muhammad is the one who started it all after he experienced frightening altered states and was only consoled by his older wife for some personal reasons.
As I had mentioned there are a lot of research being done in this aspect of altered states of consciousness and messiah-hood.


Quote:
33:63 (Asad) PEOPLE will ask thee about the Last Hour. Say: “Knowledge thereof rests with God alone; yet for all thou knowest, the Last Hour may well be near!”
33:64 (Asad) Verily, God has rejected the deniers of the truth, and has readied for them a blazing fire,
33:65 (Asad) therein to abide beyond the count of time: no protector will they find, and none to bring them succour.
33:66 (Asad) On the Day when their faces shall be tossed about in the fire, they will exclaim, “Oh, would that we had paid heed unto God, and paid heed unto the Apostle!”
33:67 (Asad) And they will say: “O our Sustainer! Behold, we paid heed unto our leaders and our great men, and it is they who have led us astray from the right path!
33:68 (Asad) O our Sustainer! Give them double suffering, and banish them utterly from Thy grace!” [84]
The above set of verses is related to Judgment Day and threat of Hell, i.e. the soteriological element supporting the main theme of 1:4 followed by the usual condemnation of the kuffar.
In context to the whole chapter 33 and psychology [neuroscience] of Muhammad, this set of verses is a threat of hell-fire directed at his other complaining wives and those who continue to slander with his scandal/affair in addition to his subliminal threat of violence.

Quote:
33:69 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Be not like those who gave offence to Moses, and God showed him to be innocent of whatever they alleged for of great honour was he in the sight of God.
The story of the old prophets (and their rejections) is one of the backbone support M used to support his claim as messenger of God. I would apply step 4-5 into this element.

Quote:
33:70 (Asad) O you who have attained to faith! Remain conscious of God, and speak with a will to bring out what is just and true -
33:71 (Asad) [whereupon] He will cause your deeds to be virtuous, and will forgive you your sins. And whoever pays heed unto God and His Apostle has already attained to a mighty triumph.
33:72 (Asad) Verily, We did offer the trust to the heavens, and the earth, and the mountains: but they refused to bear it because they were afraid of it. Yet man took it up -for, verily, he has always been prone to be most wicked, most foolish.
33:73 (Asad) that God imposes suffering on the hypocrites, both men and women, as well as on the men and women who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him. And [so, too, it is] that God turns in His mercy unto the believing men and believing women: for God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!
This may apply to Muslims in principle, but imo, it is to redirect the awareness and attention of his wives [he specifically refer to women here for good reasons] and others from their gossips and slander towards God and his Apostle to make them feel guilty about their gossips.

33:61 has its historical element [step 4] but it also has a psychological basis [step 5-6] of its author. I believe the Quran is Muhammad's words and not of any God.

While we need to take 33:61 in context of step 1-4, then 5-6, we have to take it into account in step 7. The point is from the historical, the verse is also taken as a universal principle in relation to the soteriological perspective thus independent of the historical element.
It is from this universal aspect that SOME Muslims rely upon it as a soteriological necessity to kill whoever they interpret as hypocrites. The problems is exacerbated by the lack of central authority in Islam to decide what is right and what is wrong in their quest to go the heaven and avoid hell.

In principle, the above is how we should treat any verse from the Quran, i.e. in the widest rational and objective perspective as possible.
 
Old 07-02-2015, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't think you answered juju33312's question, i.e.
It would also be interesting to see Woodrow LI work through steps 1 - 9, using the same example from the Quran and hadiths.
You only attempted steps 1-4. I think juju33312 [me too] is more interested in how you would deal with steps 5-9.
Which is why my last sentence was

(Pausing here to catch my breath plus I need some sleep)
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