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Old 07-02-2015, 08:47 AM
 
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Islam is not violent. The statistic is that about 1 out of 5 people on the planet follows Islam. If that many people were violent, we'd all of us be dead by now. What you see instead is a few hotheads -- the kind you see in ANY monotheistic religion -- doing a disproportionate amount of damage, claiming it's because they're Muslims. Most of the other Muslims are fleeing those people for their lives. Look at Syria. If all those people were violent, they would be promoting the violence or joining in, instead of fleeing the country on foot with only the clothes on their backs.

 
Old 07-02-2015, 12:42 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by Cliffie View Post
Islam is not violent. The statistic is that about 1 out of 5 people on the planet follows Islam. If that many people were violent, we'd all of us be dead by now. What you see instead is a few hotheads -- the kind you see in ANY monotheistic religion -- doing a disproportionate amount of damage, claiming it's because they're Muslims. Most of the other Muslims are fleeing those people for their lives. Look at Syria. If all those people were violent, they would be promoting the violence or joining in, instead of fleeing the country on foot with only the clothes on their backs.
The reality is more violence is done in the name of Islam that is done in the name of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, or atheism.

That reality is a reality, and to try and brush it aside by saying it is not really Islam speaking, it does not endorsed the violence, or any other excuse doesn't alter the fact of those who are the largest group of terrorists claim to adhere to the Islamic faith.

Facts are facts, even if one doesn't like them.
 
Old 07-02-2015, 02:21 PM
 
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If one truly follows Islam there are parts of it that promote violence "eye for an eye". The things ISIS is doing aren't they just practicing Islam as it was done 1000's of years ago?
 
Old 07-02-2015, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Peace continuum.

Ayyat 33:61 is a good choice.

To please juju33312 I will atempt respond in accordance wit your formulas. However I dislike nearly all
English translations, French is much closer to the Arabc. However I find Asad to be acceptable so I am using his translation


I do concur steps 1-4 will give the context



1. Relate each verse to the other verses that are related to the main idea.
2. Relate each verse in the whole chapter
3. Relate each verse to the whole of the Quran
4. Relate each verse to the history of the Quran, Muhammad and the surrounding circumstances.

Going back wards

This particular Surah was revealed 2 years after after the Battle of Uhud and During the Battle of the Trench
During the Month of Shawwal in the year AH 5
One needs to take in the conditions at the time. There was reasonable Peace in Medinah except the Arab tribes had united in an effort to destroy Muhahammad(saws) and the City of Medinah, which was a very small city at the time. basically a desert oasis.
It was also an era during which Social reform of the Muslims was taking place. Rules and regulations were being established



Surah 39 was revealed in 9 discourses with 59-72 being the final discourse (chapter) of the Surah these 13 ayyat compose a single thought and should be read together

33:59 (Asad) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all [other] believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments [when in public]: this will be more con*ducive to their being recognized [as decent women] and not annoyed. But [withal,] God is indeed much- forgiving, a dispenser of grace!


33:60 (Asad) THUS IT IS: if the hypocrites, and they in whose hearts is disease, and they who, by spreading false rumours, would cause disturbances in the City desist not . We shall indeed give thee mastery over them, and then they will not remain thy neighbours in this for more than a little while:

33:61 (Asad) bereft of God’s grace, they shall be seized wherever they may be found, and slain one and all.

33:62 (Asad) Such has been God’s way with those who passed away aforetime - and never wilt thou find any change in God’s way!


33:63 (Asad) PEOPLE will ask thee about the Last Hour. Say: “Knowledge thereof rests with God alone; yet for all thou knowest, the Last Hour may well be near!”

33:64 (Asad) Verily, God has rejected the deniers of the truth, and has readied for them a blazing fire,

33:65 (Asad) therein to abide beyond the count of time: no protec*tor will they find, and none to bring them succour.

33:66 (Asad) On the Day when their faces shall be tossed about in the fire, they will exclaim, “Oh, would that we had paid heed unto God, and paid heed unto the Apostle!”

33:67 (Asad) And they will say: “O our Sustainer! Behold, we paid heed unto our leaders and our great men, and it is they who have led us astray from the right path!

33:68 (Asad) O our Sustainer! Give them double suffering, and banish them utterly from Thy grace!” [84]

33:69 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Be not like those who gave offence to Moses, and God showed him to be innocent of whatever they alleged for of great honour was he in the sight of God.

33:70 (Asad) O you who have attained to faith! Remain conscious of God, and speak with a will to bring out what is just and true -

33:71 (Asad) [whereupon] He will cause your deeds to be virtuous, and will forgive you your sins. And whoever pays heed unto God and His Apostle has already attained to a mighty triumph.

33:72 (Asad) Verily, We did offer the trust to the heavens, and the earth, and the mountains: but they refused to bear it because they were afraid of it. Yet man took it up -for, verily, he has always been prone to be most wicked, most foolish.

33:73 (Asad) that God imposes suffering on the hypocrites, both men and women, as well as on the men and women who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him. And [so, too, it is] that God turns in His mercy unto the believing men and believing women: for God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!


A short summation it is the beginning of social reform. There will be some among them that claim to be Muslims but are hypocrites and Allaah(saws) will protect the Muslims from them. as he has always protected the Believers in the past (Remeber a good percentage of the Muslims were Jews and Familiar with Jewish Scripture. Islam does not deny that the Jews worshiped the God(swt) of Abraham and therefore performed Islam in their worship.
ayyats 61-63 are a reminder that God(swt) protected the believers in the past.

33:61 (Asad) bereft of God’s grace, they shall be seized wherever they may be found, and slain one and all.

33:62 (Asad) Such has been God’s way with those who [sinned in like manner and] passed away aforetime - and never wilt thou find any change in God’s way!

33:63 (Asad) PEOPLE will ask thee about the Last Hour. Say: “Knowledge thereof rests with God alone; yet for all thou knowest, the Last Hour may well be near!”

The Qur'an is not new it is the same message that was revealed in the Torah. In relating 33: 61 to steps 1-4 what we are looking at is the varous ways God(swt) has protected believers. Not Just in the Qur'an but in past scriptures also. At this point how does 31 relate to the Discourse 59-72-- It is a statement that God(swt) will protect the Believers from Hypocrites that Attempt to lead believers astray.
This relates to the Full Surah33 in that we are told believers will have unique set of quidlines that will guide them and that hypocrites that attempt to disrupt them from within will be punished by God(swt)

(Pausing here to catch my breath plus I need some sleep)
Picking up where I left off and continuing with 5-9

5. Relate each verse to the philosophy of religion
- the philosophy and psychology of Messiah_ship.

The concepts of messiahship in Islam differs considerably from the Christian Concept. Messiah is not a Savior that will get man into heaven and redeem them of their sins. The final Mas'ah (Messiah is Jesus(as) he did not die and is waithing in heaven, he will return to Earth, resume his life, marry have children, with the Mehdi will defeat the Dajjal (anti-Christ) lead all humandind to Islam and establish the next and Final Caliphate. After the final days and the resurrection he will give testimony against all who worshiped him as a part of a trinity or as a god.

In the Arabic language and the teachings of Islam there is no separate word for religion the concept of religion being separate from life While the word De'en is translated into English as religion it actually means life. How we live our life, is what our religion is. That goes for non-Muslims and Muslims alike.

Relating 33:61 (33:61 (Asad) bereft of God’s grace, they shall be seized wherever they may be found, and slain one and all.) in this context

It comes down to being "We all reap what we sow" or more simply "For every action there is a consequence"


6. Relate each verse to the human nature and psychology [especially neuro-psychology]

Relating this to a very basic explanation of emoions being a memory of what stimulated the limbic systen and anticipation the same conditions will give the same result.-- Yes I do believe emotions have a physical cause.

Depending on the concept of verse. If 33:61 is seen as being a stand alone verse it is more related to the physical concepts of cause and effect. However in terms of how it could produce an emotional response in an individual one would need to know if the individuals limbic system is stimulated. For that we would need to know what sensations the person experienced in the past to the words.

Very simple answer to "could a person be emotional stimulated upon hearing the words. The answer is yes, but would be virtually impossible to predict. One could do the reverse, if there is an emotional sensation, it would be possible to determine why.

Relating to basic human nature: People tend to have a desire to see good rewarded and bad punished. We do have a tendency to seek out "Justice" which many perceive as Rewards and punishments.


7. Relate each verse to the whole existence and history of humanity and anthropology, etc.


33-61 blend in quite well with the human desire to destroy that which is perceived as a threat. Destruction of evil is the ultimate seperation of evil and good.


8. Relate each verse to the Universe

Helps demonstrate an understanding of Checks and balances to prevent chaos.

9. Relate each verse to whatever is relevant.

33:61 is primarily relevant to the the understanding of hypocrisy and justification for avoiding it.
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Old 07-02-2015, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by kell490 View Post
If one truly follows Islam there are parts of it that promote violence "eye for an eye". The things ISIS is doing aren't they just practicing Islam as it was done 1000's of years ago?
In the cases of physical harm under Shariah the Shariah court will allow the injured party to select a choice as to what should be done to the guilty. the injured party can select one of the following and only one.


1. They can demand monetary compensation for the injury

2. They can have the same injury inflicted upon the perpetrator

3. They can forgive and let the person go free.

We do believe that if the injured chooses #3 they will be highly blessed and in death be rewarded many times over tor their loss.

ISIS has not done one thing under the jurisdiction of a valid sharia court. They have set them self above the court
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Old 07-02-2015, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
The reality is more violence is done in the name of Islam that is done in the name of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, or atheism.

That reality is a reality, and to try and brush it aside by saying it is not really Islam speaking, it does not endorsed the violence, or any other excuse doesn't alter the fact of those who are the largest group of terrorists claim to adhere to the Islamic faith.

Facts are facts, even if one doesn't like them.
I will agree that applies for what is labelled as religious motivated terrorism. Simply because if a Muslim does an act it is automatically labelled as being Islamic Terrorism while Terrorism done by a Christian is rarely labelled as terrorism

Now if we were to look at acts of violence without putting religious labels on them The Americas are probably the most violent places on earth

Not a single Muslim nation makes the top 10 list for murders.

These 10 Countries Have The World's Highest Murder Rates
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Old 07-02-2015, 03:21 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I will agree that applies for what is labelled as religious motivated terrorism. Simply because if a Muslim does an act it is automatically labelled as being Islamic Terrorism while Terrorism done by a Christian is rarely labelled as terrorism

Now if we were to look at acts of violence without putting religious labels on them The Americas are probably the most violent places on earth

Not a single Muslim nation makes the top 10 list for murders.

These 10 Countries Have The World's Highest Murder Rates
Woodrow, you're deflecting. We're talking about violence because of terrorism, not violence that may occur for other reasons. Violence by terrorism is by definition targeted at other individuals or groups, and is always driven by ideology.
 
Old 07-02-2015, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Woodrow, you're deflecting. We're talking about violence because of terrorism, not violence that may occur for other reasons. Violence by terrorism is by definition targeted at other individuals or groups, and is always driven by ideology.
That is the point. Violence not associated with religious ideology is much more common than violence associated with religion.
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Old 07-02-2015, 04:40 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is the point. Violence not associated with religious ideology is much more common than violence associated with religion.
But the subject under discussion is the violence and the terrorism committed in the name of a religion.

There is only one religion which stands out as the major perpetrator of such terrorism. You may not like it, but it is Islam that fits that mold.
 
Old 07-02-2015, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
But the subject under discussion is the violence and the terrorism committed in the name of a religion.

There is only one religion which stands out as the major perpetrator of such terrorism. You may not like it, but it is Islam that fits that mold.
I believe the simple reason is because if a Muslim commits an act of violence the media automatically associates it as Islamic, but if a Christian does the same it is automatically associated as violence and not Terrorism.
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