U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-02-2015, 06:06 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,689,872 times
Reputation: 9157

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe the simple reason is because if a Muslim commits an act of violence the media automatically associates it as Islamic, but if a Christian does the same it is automatically associated as violence and not Terrorism.
it is the Muslim himself that is claiming it is done in the name of Islam, as directed to do so by Muhammad
NOT the media; the bully, the sociopath, the psychopath always have someone else to blame

to blame the media is yet another example of NOT taking responsibility for atrocities
which in itself is an atrocity
a person who defends atrocities is perpetuating and condoning the atrocities; never an apology, never any remorse, never a simple statement of "this must stop"

just more excuses and blame and deception and deflection; the more someone makes excuses for atrocities, the less credibility they have

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-02-2015 at 06:16 PM..

 
Old 07-02-2015, 07:01 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,499 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it is the Muslim himself that is claiming it is done in the name of Islam, as directed to do so by Muhammad
NOT the media; the bully, the sociopath, the psychopath always have someone else to blame

to blame the media is yet another example of NOT taking responsibility for atrocities
which in itself is an atrocity
a person who defends atrocities is perpetuating and condoning the atrocities; never an apology, never any remorse, never a simple statement of "this must stop"

just more excuses and blame and deception and deflection; the more someone makes excuses for atrocities, the less credibility they have
Than will you take responsibility for these people... And I quote: "They sit here. Just being an Arab on our land (the West Bank) makes them guilty. A gentile and a Jew are not even supposed to eat at the same table, therefore how will we ever allow peace?"


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NMwohMhP10
 
Old 07-02-2015, 07:42 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,089,056 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Than will you take responsibility for these people... And I quote: "They sit here. Just being an Arab on our land (the West Bank) makes them guilty. A gentile and a Jew are not even supposed to eat at the same table, therefore how will we ever allow peace?"


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NMwohMhP10
What's your point? It is clear these Israeli criminals go to jail. No one is condoning what they are doing, or excusing it.

Unlike plethora of excuses made for Islamic terrorism.

Your deflecting from the topic and you know it. Stay with the ississue, and don't revert to the children's method of "yeah well what about what they're doing."
 
Old 07-02-2015, 08:37 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,689,872 times
Reputation: 9157
it is the way of the bully, the tyrant, the despot, the psychopath, the sociopath, and the megalomaniac

the meticulous accounts of muhammad's life show clearly and simply and without question a tyrant and psychopath
the followers of Islam who see muhammad as the perfect human emulate his behavior and follow his commands

human psychology is clear and simple, this behavior shows no remorse, no responsibility, no credibility, no honesty, no regard for human life

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-02-2015 at 08:47 PM..
 
Old 07-02-2015, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it is the way of the bully, the tyrant, the despot, the psychopath, the sociopath, and the megalomaniac

the meticulous accounts of muhammad's life show clearly and simply and without question a tyrant and psychopath
the followers of Islam who see muhammad as the perfect human emulate his behavior and follow his commands

human psychology is clear and simple, this behavior shows no remorse, no responsibility, no credibility, no honesty, no regard for human life
What do we as Muslims see of Muhammad?

We see a Prophet that limited how many wives a man could have. We see a man that taught equality of woman and commanded woman to get as much education as they could. We see a man that treated all people fairly and became known all the way to China as a person that could be trusted.

I have never read anything negative about Muhammad(saws) in sahih Ahadith and have seen his beauty in the 40 Ahadith Qudsi.

Now as for Muslims condemning terrorist on several occasion I have posted links showing we do condemn them.

One problem is, it is very doubtful that any Muslim posting here has ever had any contact with a terrorist. We have no way tocontect the terrorists, we have nothing in common with them

Another thing is we do not belong to an organization. the concept of all Muslims belonging to the same thing is not there. We do not have membership in Islam as it is not an organization. Every Mosque is idependent very often built by, owned by and supported by the Imam and his family. We do believe all Muslims are all equal in the Ummah and we are all Brothers and sisters, but we do not belong to a mosque, denomination, or Islam. We all are people that state we practice the act of Islam to the best of our ability.

The Terrorists might as well be following an obscure unknown cult as far as we know. It is hard to personally condemn a person you know absolutely nothing about except what the media says. Most of us only know the Muslims in the Mosque we attend most often. American Muslims are a verysmall part of the World's Muslims population and we are in several flavors, for the most part we do not recognize each other as Muslims. Most of us have no contact with Muslims outside of America.

My Contact with Muslims outside America occured when I was a Christian Missionary, back in the 1960d-70s. At no time was I ever treated badly in Saudi, Iran, Iraq, and much of North Africa.

I do condemn terrorism by Muslims and believe they should be stopped and punished.but it is not likely any terrorist will ever be aware of my condemnation. there is no way I can contact them.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 07-02-2015, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffie View Post
Islam is not violent. The statistic is that about 1 out of 5 people on the planet follows Islam. If that many people were violent, we'd all of us be dead by now. What you see instead is a few hotheads -- the kind you see in ANY monotheistic religion -- doing a disproportionate amount of damage, claiming it's because they're Muslims. Most of the other Muslims are fleeing those people for their lives. Look at Syria. If all those people were violent, they would be promoting the violence or joining in, instead of fleeing the country on foot with only the clothes on their backs.
Your thinking is too narrow minded.

Can you prove me wrong on the following argument?

note: I used 'Buddhism' as representative of the major Eastern religions.

1. Buddhism: 1. 90% good people, 2. 10% evil-prone, 3. no violence in holy texts, 4. Non-martial founder, 5. limit violence, 6. Large number of followers

2. Judaism - OT: 1. 90% good people, 2. 10% evil-prone, 3. Lots of violence in holy texts, 4. Non-martial founder?, 5. no limit to violence 6. Small number of followers

3. Christianity -NT: OT: 1. 90% good people, 2. 10% evil-prone, 3. Minimal violence in holy texts, 4. Non-martial founder, 5. limit violence [love your enemies, golden Rule, other cheeks]. 6. Very Large number of followers

4. Islam: 1. 90% good people, 2. 10% evil-prone, 3. Lots of violence [55%] in holy texts, 4. Martial founder, 5. no limit to violence, 6. Large number of followers.

We will note from the above comparisons, there is no origin of violence from Buddhism itself as there are no* violent and evil elements in the Buddhist sutras. *if any, very rare. The founder, Gautama Buddha avoided his martial background as a warrior prince to become a monk.
Like humans every where, there will be appx. say 10% of evil prone within the Buddhists [it is easy and anyone can be a Buddhist] and these people will commit evil and violence but only based on their inherent human nature of evil but not inspired by any Buddhist texts or its founder.

I am not super familiar with Judaism, but its small number of followers need to be wary of but it is not critical at present.

As for Christianity, Jesus is a pacifist and has no martial background. The 'love' verses in the NT override and abrogate any violent element in the NT and OT.



Islam is a uniquely different kettle-of-fish from the rest. Islam as whole package of religion has all the ingredients to promote and inspire its 10% evil prone believers to commit terrible evils and violence on infidels. i.e.
1. 55% of the 6236 verses of the Quran contain negative elements [of various degrees] that are antagonistic to the Kuffar [infidels].

2. It founder, Muhammad ended with a martial background that is filled with violence and evils that are reflected in the Quran itself. Muhammad is supposed to be the perfect example for ALL Muslims to follow.

3. There is no absolute deterrence of violence and evils enforce on Muslims. There are direct and indirect approval for Muslims to commit violence and evil on the Kuffar [infidels]. On the matter of the indirect, self-defence is encouraged but whatever is to defended is highly open to interpretations. Note cartoons to justify mass killings all over the world and other minor reasons?

4. There is a large number of Muslims, i.e. 1.5 billion around the world is a very significant quantum. 10% means 150 million, and even 1% is still 15 million and even 0.1% of 1.5 million is still very scary. It only took a 18++ to do a 911 and lone wolves or a couple to create real havoc [note Boston, now Tunisa].
From the above, it is fully justified terrorism, violence and evil is an inevitable PART [small but critical] of the package of Islam. When the 5 elements above combined the malignancy within Islam manifest spontaneously and inspiring SOME Muslims to commit violence and evils.

Until we recognize this fact and deal with it effectively, Islamic terror will not be resolved.
We need to recognize this fact, terrorism is an inevitable part of Islam.

[b]My point again: [/quote]
From the above, it is fully justified terrorism, violence and evil is an inevitable PART [small but critical] of the package of Islam.

Trying proving me wrong on the above argument.
 
Old 07-02-2015, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your thinking is too narrow minded.

Can you prove me wrong on the following argument?

note: I used 'Buddhism' as representative of the major Eastern religions.

1. Buddhism: 1. 90% good people, 2. 10% evil-prone, 3. no violence in holy texts, 4. Non-martial founder, 5. limit violence, 6. Large number of followers

2. Judaism - OT: 1. 90% good people, 2. 10% evil-prone, 3. Lots of violence in holy texts, 4. Non-martial founder?, 5. no limit to violence 6. Small number of followers

3. Christianity -NT: OT: 1. 90% good people, 2. 10% evil-prone, 3. Minimal violence in holy texts, 4. Non-martial founder, 5. limit violence [love your enemies, golden Rule, other cheeks]. 6. Very Large number of followers

4. Islam: 1. 90% good people, 2. 10% evil-prone, 3. Lots of violence [55%] in holy texts, 4. Martial founder, 5. no limit to violence, 6. Large number of followers.

We will note from the above comparisons, there is no origin of violence from Buddhism itself as there are no* violent and evil elements in the Buddhist sutras. *if any, very rare. The founder, Gautama Buddha avoided his martial background as a warrior prince to become a monk.
Like humans every where, there will be appx. say 10% of evil prone within the Buddhists [it is easy and anyone can be a Buddhist] and these people will commit evil and violence but only based on their inherent human nature of evil but not inspired by any Buddhist texts or its founder.

I am not super familiar with Judaism, but its small number of followers need to be wary of but it is not critical at present.

As for Christianity, Jesus is a pacifist and has no martial background. The 'love' verses in the NT override and abrogate any violent element in the NT and OT.



Islam is a uniquely different kettle-of-fish from the rest. Islam as whole package of religion has all the ingredients to promote and inspire its 10% evil prone believers to commit terrible evils and violence on infidels. i.e.
1. 55% of the 6236 verses of the Quran contain negative elements [of various degrees] that are antagonistic to the Kuffar [infidels].

2. It founder, Muhammad ended with a martial background that is filled with violence and evils that are reflected in the Quran itself. Muhammad is supposed to be the perfect example for ALL Muslims to follow.

3. There is no absolute deterrence of violence and evils enforce on Muslims. There are direct and indirect approval for Muslims to commit violence and evil on the Kuffar [infidels]. On the matter of the indirect, self-defence is encouraged but whatever is to defended is highly open to interpretations. Note cartoons to justify mass killings all over the world and other minor reasons?

4. There is a large number of Muslims, i.e. 1.5 billion around the world is a very significant quantum. 10% means 150 million, and even 1% is still 15 million and even 0.1% of 1.5 million is still very scary. It only took a 18++ to do a 911 and lone wolves or a couple to create real havoc [note Boston, now Tunisa].
From the above, it is fully justified terrorism, violence and evil is an inevitable PART [small but critical] of the package of Islam. When the 5 elements above combined the malignancy within Islam manifest spontaneously and inspiring SOME Muslims to commit violence and evils.

Until we recognize this fact and deal with it effectively, Islamic terror will not be resolved.
We need to recognize this fact, terrorism is an inevitable part of Islam.

[b]My point again:
From the above, it is fully justified terrorism, violence and evil is an inevitable PART [small but critical] of the package of Islam.

Trying proving me wrong on the above argument.[/quote]

You should be aware it is impossible to prove a negative, except in mathematics. The Burden of proof is upon you to prove you are correct,not upon anyone to prove you are wrong.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 07-02-2015, 11:01 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,689,872 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do condemn terrorism by Muslims and believe they should be stopped and punished. but it is not likely any terrorist will ever be aware of my condemnation. there is no way I can contact them.
thank you

when a person speaks out in favor of goodness, and speaks out against atrocity, it has immense value
for those who say it
and for those who hear it
 
Old 07-02-2015, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Picking up where I left off and continuing with 5-9

5. Relate each verse to the philosophy of religion
- the philosophy and psychology of Messiah_ship.

The concepts of messiahship in Islam differs considerably from the Christian Concept. Messiah is not a Savior that will get man into heaven and redeem them of their sins. The final Mas'ah (Messiah is Jesus(as) he did not die and is waithing in heaven, he will return to Earth, resume his life, marry have children, with the Mehdi will defeat the Dajjal (anti-Christ) lead all humandind to Islam and establish the next and Final Caliphate. After the final days and the resurrection he will give testimony against all who worshiped him as a part of a trinity or as a god.

In the Arabic language and the teachings of Islam there is no separate word for religion the concept of religion being separate from life While the word De'en is translated into English as religion it actually means life. How we live our life, is what our religion is. That goes for non-Muslims and Muslims alike.

Relating 33:61 (33:61 (Asad) bereft of Godís grace, they shall be seized wherever they may be found, and slain one and all.) in this context

It comes down to being "We all reap what we sow" or more simply "For every action there is a consequence"
Nah.. your views are too superficial here.

Basically there is the topic of Messiah,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

What is critical here is the psychology of the claimants of messiah-ship;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

Within human psychology there is a rare bunch of humans who have altered states of conscious of varying degrees and different psychological manifestations ranging in a continuum from those of the saintly of Jesus, Buddha, St. Theresa of Avila, on one extreme to the other extreme of evil, e.g. Koresh, Jim Jones, etc. Note such experiences usually manifest from abnormal brain connectivity/lesion due to madness, illness, brain damage, hallucinogens, drugs, etc.

Now when I read 33:61 and taking within the whole context of the Quran, history, it is very likely that Muhammad had some kind experience of altered states of consciousness. And inferring from the evil manifestations from his verses, it is most likely his experience is represented in the negative side of the continuum. Btw, this is not a wild fling of ideas, there are a lot of research to support this hypothesis and very theory.
Can you counter this argument.

Quote:
6. Relate each verse to the human nature and psychology [especially neuro-psychology]
Relating this to a very basic explanation of emotions being a memory of what stimulated the limbic systen and anticipation the same conditions will give the same result.-- Yes I do believe emotions have a physical cause.

Depending on the concept of verse. If 33:61 is seen as being a stand alone verse it is more related to the physical concepts of cause and effect. However in terms of how it could produce an emotional response in an individual one would need to know if the individuals limbic system is stimulated. For that we would need to know what sensations the person experienced in the past to the words.

Very simple answer to "could a person be emotional stimulated upon hearing the words. The answer is yes, but would be virtually impossible to predict. One could do the reverse, if there is an emotional sensation, it would be possible to determine why.

Relating to basic human nature: People tend to have a desire to see good rewarded and bad punished. We do have a tendency to seek out "Justice" which many perceive as Rewards and punishments.
Again you are not on target with the point and the truth of the matter.

On soteriological matters, what is active is much more deeper than the limbic regions, i.e. it activate the primal regions in the lower brain that sustain survival, i.e. a matter of life or death and covered by instincts of fight or flight, kill or be killed just like the reactions of any cornered wounded beasts.

Because statements such as 33:61 are so sensitive at the primal levels, it should NEVER be included with any soteriological matters.
This is why SOME Muslims act on 33:61 [and the likes] when they feel their religion (Islam) is threatened [which can be anything, e.g. cartoons] and they kill kuffar as sanctioned by Allah.

Statements like 33:61 should not be included in religious texts as any normal human being will instinctively act on it when they are threatened. In ordinary circumstances the average person can use his discretion. When such statement as 33:61 is under the sanction of God, then it is a free for all by SOME Muslims. The evil results in evident from Muslims and not from other believers.


Quote:
7. Relate each verse to the whole existence and history of humanity and anthropology, etc.
33-61 blend in quite well with the human desire to destroy that which is perceived as a threat. Destruction of evil is the ultimate seperation of evil and good.
As I had said, there is no need to include such an instinctively response in a religious text. Humans will naturally response to threats as programmed in their DNA. What is critical to implement controls to modulate such instincts and not to add fuel to trigger them in the religious contexts.

It is a mistake of Islam to include it [together with 3427 verses -55%] that contain negative elements that support 33:61 directly and indirectly.
Statement of violence as in 33:61 should be independent of religious and soteriological matter, i.e. be left to independent politicians, judiciary, police, armies and the likes but NEVER be part of the religious sector.

As such we need to correct the above serious mistakes within Islam. How? - that the 64 million dollars question.


Quote:
8. Relate each verse to the Universe
Helps demonstrate an understanding of Checks and balances to prevent chaos.

9. Relate each verse to whatever is relevant.

33:61 is primarily relevant to the the understanding of hypocrisy and justification for avoiding it.
It is not moral to kill and slain hypocrites. They can be easily cured by counseling, education and other psychological therapies. You have psychology experience, I am sure you know that. If is that serious [i.e. a serial hypocrite], then refer him/her to a psychiatrist which I don't there is a need at all for 'hypocrites'.

Generally in the Quran contexts Muslims wrongly/falsely misinterpret others as 'hypocrites' within their religious contexts. This is open to critical debates and there is no need for 33:61 to be included in a holy texts as an eternal general principle.

When I relate 33:61 to the universe, I question whether there a god in the first place to send a messenger who deliver the 33:61 verse.
Then within the psychology of Messiah-ship I would question the sanity factor of that the person who claimed to the Messiah.
Btw, with the exception to time factor [too long ago to verify the truth] no one in the modern era will be able to claim their Messiah_hood to be authentic as approved by a real God. It is only for soteriological, faith [belief without proof nor reason] and irrational factors that believers accept them to relieve their psychological angsts.


I conclude you have failed to explain 33:61 factually in its real and truthful contexts.

It is a blemish to humanity that 33:61 was included in a holy texts that culminated [together with 3427 other verses] in real evils and violence and it is a serious threat in the future.
 
Old 07-02-2015, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
From the above, it is fully justified terrorism, violence and evil is an inevitable PART [small but critical] of the package of Islam.

Trying proving me wrong on the above argument.
You should be aware it is impossible to prove a negative, except in mathematics. The Burden of proof is upon you to prove you are correct,not upon anyone to prove you are wrong.[/quote]What??

I did not request you to prove a negative.

I assert terrorism, violence and evil is an inevitable Part [small but critical] of the package of Islam.

I have already given you the evidence;
1. 55% Evil laden verses in the Quran [primary factor], and secondary factors, i.e. hadiths, sira, ethos and other elements of Islam.
2. SOME evil prone Muslims
3. Actual evidence as reported in the News almost on a daily basis.

Your counter is to defend the above, i.e. that 3 has not link to 1 and 2.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top