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Old 07-03-2015, 02:29 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 758,874 times
Reputation: 435

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"muhammed was as perfect in raping his nine year old 'bride' as jesus was when he told the parable of how to whip slaves."

First, if you are going to make statements like this then supply the chapter and verse like I so. Otherwise it's an arbitrary assertion and deserves to be ignored.

Second, I am not a Christian and I make no claim about Jesus being perfect.

Third, I can say that if Jesus promoted whipping slaves, that was downright wrong and evil.

Next, whatever Jesus may have done does not excuse the great evil that Muhammed did.

I have spoken to literally hundreds of Muslims. NOT ONE would say Muhammed was wrong to own slaves, sell them and trade them. In fact, not one would say that Muhammed was evil to rape a child, rape women and sell them, etc. Ask them.

Since I keep running into people who think it is important to compare Jesus and Muhammed, let's do that.

1. Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child.

Sunan of Abu Dawud, volume 2, #2116"Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was six years old. He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old."

2. Muhammed raped women.

Safiyah was taken to Muhammad’s tent. Muhammad wanted to have sex with her after torturing to death her husband. That night Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of Muhammad. Muhammad saw Abu Ayyub & asked him why he was there; he said: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, I was really afraid for you on her account". (Ibn Ishaq, p. 766)

3. Muhammed and his men attacked villages while the people were busy farming.

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

4. Muhammed owned slaves.

"Zad al-Ma'ad" (part 1, pp. 114, 115, and 116):

"These are the names of Muhammad's male slaves: Yakan Abu Sharh, Aflah, 'Ubayd, Dhakwan, Tahman, Mirwan, Hunayn, Sanad, Fadala Yamamin, Anjasha al-Hadi, Mad'am, Karkara, Abu Rafi', Thawban, Ab Kabsha, Salih, Rabah, Yara Nubyan, Fadila, Waqid, Mabur, Abu Waqid, Kasam, Abu 'Ayb, Abu Muwayhiba, Zayd Ibn Haritha, and also a black slave called Mahran, who was re-named (by Muhammad) Safina (`ship').

Then I put on my clothes and went to Allah's Apostle's residence, and behold, he was staying in an upper room of his to which he ascended by a ladder, and a black slave of Allah's Apostle was (sitting) on the first step. I said to him, 'Say (to the Prophet ) 'Umar bin Al-Khattab is here.'...
Sahih Bukhari 6:60:435

See also: Tabari Volume 2 p. 216, 217, 218) and others.

5. Muhammed sold women and gave them as booty.

"Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham/Hisham 693)

The apostle gave Ali a girl called Rayta; and he gave Uthman a girl called Zaynab; and he gave Umar a girl whom Umar gave to his son Abdullah. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 878)

6. Muhammed ordered people to be murdered.

Muhammad ordered a Jewish woman put to death for literally losing her mind while the male members of her family were being beheaded (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 691). Here is a women that the prophet of Islam ordered killed for adultery.

He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death. (Sahih Muslim 4209)

7. Muhammed let his men mass rape women.

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you except those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

This is a start. Now it is your turn.

 
Old 07-03-2015, 03:59 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 758,874 times
Reputation: 435
"The problem is the only knowledge we have about Aisha is Aisha herself. There are no third party witnesses or collaborators."

Yet this huge whopper from Aisha made it into the hadiths over and over and are considered STRONG hadiths!!? All of the careful checking and rechecking and tossing of questionable verses done in multiple hadiths was forgotten when it comes to the age of Aisha? If this is the case I would say all the hadiths are worthless and should be tossed! But not one hadith contradicts Aisha's story. On the contrary, in your very article Aisha is praised:

"an excellent, precise memory to retain a vast amount of detail accurately,
the understanding to grasp the significance and the principles of the teachings,
powers of reasoning, criticism and deduction to resolve problems on the basis of those teachings,
the skills to convey knowledge to a wide range of audience...."

No mention of her telling whoppers. Read your own (Qualities of Aisha and her role in Islam) and fit that in with your implication that Aisha told the monster of all lies!!

But in any case, it was not just Aisha saying Muhammed started raping her at nine years old.

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

Muhammad was having sex with a Aisha while still was a child! The Quran allows this, Muhammad did this, Aisha and others stated this, and the scholars affirm this.

"the only thing we know for certain is she had reached puberty."

This is very questionable. It would be highly unusual for a girl of 9 to have had a period...plus, even if a child had started menarche that early she is still too young for 53 year old men to be raping her. Take a look at 4th grade girls. Should men in their 50's be raping them? Would you have sex with a 4th grader?

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was six years old, and he was taken to his house AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

When the Apostle of Allah arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)

A Muslim scholar says that it is okay for Aisha (and other children) to play with dolls because they are not considered adults:

Al-Khattaabee said: From this Hadeeth it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to 'Aa'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) is because SHE HAD NOT, AT THAT TIME, REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY.

"Child marriage is forbidden in the Qur'an. "

Nope. Wrong again.
Pedophilia in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

"Aisha never gave any indication her marriage was not mutually consent."

You have dismissed Aisha above as a liar. Why use her now as a reliable source?

How does a 9 year old consent to sex with a 53 year old man? Didn't her Muhammed arrange it with her father? From he hadiths, there is no indication that Aisha was ever asked if she wanted to marry and be screwed by Muhammed. If there is such a verse, please present it!

Please read the accounts in the hadith of Aisha being presented to Muhammed.

"Before making the accusation you have to first PROVE he did such."

The proof is in your own hadiths. I am just reporting what is in the hadiths. You may not like it, but I can't change the hadiths.
 
Old 07-03-2015, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,352,531 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The problem is the only knowledge we have about Aisha is Aisha herself. There are no third party witnesses or collaborators."

Yet this huge whopper from Aisha made it into the hadiths over and over and are considered STRONG hadiths!!? All of the careful checking and rechecking and tossing of questionable verses done in multiple hadiths was forgotten when it comes to the age of Aisha? If this is the case I would say all the hadiths are worthless and should be tossed! But not one hadith contradicts Aisha's story. On the contrary, in your very article Aisha is praised:

"an excellent, precise memory to retain a vast amount of detail accurately,
the understanding to grasp the significance and the principles of the teachings,
powers of reasoning, criticism and deduction to resolve problems on the basis of those teachings,
the skills to convey knowledge to a wide range of audience...."

No mention of her telling whoppers. Read your own (Qualities of Aisha and her role in Islam) and fit that in with your implication that Aisha told the monster of all lies!!

But in any case, it was not just Aisha saying Muhammed started raping her at nine years old.

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

Muhammad was having sex with a Aisha while still was a child! The Quran allows this, Muhammad did this, Aisha and others stated this, and the scholars affirm this.

"the only thing we know for certain is she had reached puberty."

This is very questionable. It would be highly unusual for a girl of 9 to have had a period...plus, even if a child had started menarche that early she is still too young for 53 year old men to be raping her. Take a look at 4th grade girls. Should men in their 50's be raping them? Would you have sex with a 4th grader?

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was six years old, and he was taken to his house AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

When the Apostle of Allah arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)

A Muslim scholar says that it is okay for Aisha (and other children) to play with dolls because they are not considered adults:

Al-Khattaabee said: From this Hadeeth it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to 'Aa'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) is because SHE HAD NOT, AT THAT TIME, REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY.

"Child marriage is forbidden in the Qur'an. "

Nope. Wrong again.
Pedophilia in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

"Aisha never gave any indication her marriage was not mutually consent."

You have dismissed Aisha above as a liar. Why use her now as a reliable source?

How does a 9 year old consent to sex with a 53 year old man? Didn't her Muhammed arrange it with her father? From he hadiths, there is no indication that Aisha was ever asked if she wanted to marry and be screwed by Muhammed. If there is such a verse, please present it!

Please read the accounts in the hadith of Aisha being presented to Muhammed.

"Before making the accusation you have to first PROVE he did such."

The proof is in your own hadiths. I am just reporting what is in the hadiths. You may not like it, but I can't change the hadiths.
the Ahadith are not stand alone proofs. It is quite complex to determine exactly what any hadith actually proves.

There are not as many unique hadith as what appearances indicate. Many Ahadith are repeated numerous times but are just one hadith. The hadith narrated by Hissham is the only hadith that gives Aisha's age. The problem is it has been repeated several times in different collections, sometimes with slight differences in wording based upon the isnad. but it is a single hadith.

there is some question as to if it is Sahih. What is known Hisham ibn urwah(Also called just Hisham or just Urwah) was quite old when he wrote his memories of Aisha) The age he attributes to Aisha was never confirmed by any other person. Looking at other Ahadith The Ahadith give more reason to believe Aisha was 19 or 20, not 6 or 7, at the time she married Muhammad (saws)

more can be read here. What was Ayesha’s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?
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Old 07-03-2015, 08:05 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 758,874 times
Reputation: 435
"The Ahadith give more reason to believe Aisha was 19 or 20, not 6 or 7,"

This makes it even worse then. Muhammed took advantage of a mentally feeble girl who was still swinging with playmates and playing with dolls at 19 or 20.

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger, whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, NOT YET REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)

You are trying to use the common argument: Argument from the Chain of Transmission:

Argument from the Chain of Transmission

In this section we want to deal with a few specific points raised by certain individuals like Moiz Amjad of www.understanding-islam.org who try to cast doubt on the veracity of the reports that explicitly say Muhammad married Aisha when she was nine.

Mr. Amjad calls into question the reliability of these reports on the grounds that the one who transmitted most of them, Hisham ibn Urwah, wasn’t completely reliable:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302) (What was Ayesha’s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?; source)
We will let Sunni writer Gibril Foaud Haddad refute Moiz Amjad’s criticism of Hisham ibn Urwah. Here is what he says in relation to the first point:

Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha. (Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet, Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad)

In regard to the second point, Haddad writes:

Not so. Al-Zuhri also reports it from `Urwa, from `A'isha; so does `Abd Allah ibn Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi who reports it from her in the Musnad and in Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sa`d ibn Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim ibn Muhammad, one of the Seven Imams of Madina, from `A'isha. All the narratives of this event have been reported…

Not so. In addition to the above four Madinese Tabi`in narrators, Sufyan ibn `Uyayna from Khurasan and `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya from Tabarayya in Palestine both report it.

Nor was this hadith reported only by `Urwa but also by `Abd al-Malik ibn `Umayr, al-Aswad, Ibn Abi Mulayka, Abu Salama ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf, Yahya ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn Hatib, Abu `Ubayda (`Amir ibn `Abd Allah ibn Mas`ud) and others of the Tabi`i Imams directly from `A'isha.

This makes the report mass-transmitted (mutawatir) from `A'isha by over eleven authorities among the Tabi`in, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, such as Ibn Mas`ud nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha, such as Qatada!

And here is his answer to the third and fourth points:

Rather, Ya`qub said: "Trustworthy, thoroughly reliable (thiqa thabt), above reproach except after he went to Iraq, at which time he narrated overly from his father and was criticized for it." Notice that Ya`qub does not exactly endorse that criticism.

As for Malik, he reports over 100 hadiths from Hisham as is evident in the two Sahihs and Sunan! to the point that al-Dhahabi questions the authenticity of his alleged criticism of Hisham.

Indeed, none among the hadith Masters endorsed these reservations since they were based solely on the fact that Hisham in his last period (he was 71 at the time of his last trip to Iraq), for the sake of brevity, would say, "My father, from `A'isha? (abi `an `A'isha)" and no longer pronounced, "narrated to me (haddathani)".

Al-Mizzi in Tahdhib al-Kamal (30:238) explained that it became a foregone conclusion for the Iraqis that Hisham did not narrate anything from his father except what he had heard directly from him.

Ibn Hajar also dismisses the objections against Hisham ibn `Urwa as negligible in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib (11:45), saying: "It was clear enough to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what he had heard directly from him".

In fact, to say that "narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwa are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq" is major nonsense as that would eliminate all narrations of Ayyub al-Sakhtyani from him since Ayyub was a Basran Iraqi, and those of Abu `Umar al-Nakha`i who was from Kufa, and those of Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman from Kufa (the Shaykh of Abu Hanifa), and those of Hammad ibn Salama and Hammad ibn Zayd both from Basra, and those of Sufyan al-Thawri from Basra, and those of Shu`ba in Basra, all of whom narrated from Hisham! …

An outright lie, on the contrary, al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-I`tidal (4:301 #9233) states: "Hisham ibn `Urwa, one of the eminent personalities. A Proof in himself, and an Imam. However, in his old age his memory diminished, but he certainly never became confused. Nor should any attention be paid to what Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattan said about him and Suhayl ibn Abi Salih becoming confused or changing! Yes, the man changed a little bit and his memory was not the same as it had been in his younger days, so that he forgot some of what he had memorized or lapsed, so what? Is he immune to forgetfulness? [p. 302] And when he came to Iraq in the last part of his life he narrated a great amount of knowledge, in the course of which are a few narrations in which he did not excel, and such as occurs also to Malik, and Shu`ba, and Waki`, and the major trustworthy masters. So spare yourself confusion and floundering, do not make mix the firmly-established Imams with the weak and muddled narrators. Hisham is a Shaykh al-Islam. But may Allah console us well of you, O Ibn al-Qattan, and the same with regard to `Abd al-Rahman ibn Khirash's statement from Malik!"

Mr. Amjad also claims that:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

Al-Maududi refutes this date:

Period of Revelation
The incident of the shaqq-al-Qamar (splitting of the moon) that has been mentioned in it determines its period of revelation precisely. The traditionists and commentators are agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's hijra to Madinah. (Source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

As does Haddad:

Not true. The hadith Masters, Sira historians, and Qur'anic commentators agree that the splitting of the moon took place about five years before the Holy Prophet's (upon him blessings and peace) Hijra to Madina.

Thus it is confirmed that our Mother `Aisha was born between seven and eight years before the Hijra and the words that she was a jariya or little girl five years before the Hijra match the fact that her age at the time Surat al-Qamar was revealed was around 2 or 3.

To read Haddad’s complete rebuttal to Amjad’s article please click on the following links: 1, 2, 3.

Muhammad's Marriage to a Prepubescent Girl and its Moral Implications [Part 2]
 
Old 07-03-2015, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,352,531 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The Ahadith give more reason to believe Aisha was 19 or 20, not 6 or 7,"

This makes it even worse then. Muhammed took advantage of a mentally feeble girl who was still swinging with playmates and playing with dolls at 19 or 20.

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger, whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, NOT YET REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)

You are trying to use the common argument: Argument from the Chain of Transmission:

Argument from the Chain of Transmission

In this section we want to deal with a few specific points raised by certain individuals like Moiz Amjad of www.understanding-islam.org who try to cast doubt on the veracity of the reports that explicitly say Muhammad married Aisha when she was nine.

Mr. Amjad calls into question the reliability of these reports on the grounds that the one who transmitted most of them, Hisham ibn Urwah, wasn’t completely reliable:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302) (What was Ayesha’s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?; source)
We will let Sunni writer Gibril Foaud Haddad refute Moiz Amjad’s criticism of Hisham ibn Urwah. Here is what he says in relation to the first point:

Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha. (Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet, Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad)

In regard to the second point, Haddad writes:

Not so. Al-Zuhri also reports it from `Urwa, from `A'isha; so does `Abd Allah ibn Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi who reports it from her in the Musnad and in Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sa`d ibn Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim ibn Muhammad, one of the Seven Imams of Madina, from `A'isha. All the narratives of this event have been reported…

Not so. In addition to the above four Madinese Tabi`in narrators, Sufyan ibn `Uyayna from Khurasan and `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya from Tabarayya in Palestine both report it.

Nor was this hadith reported only by `Urwa but also by `Abd al-Malik ibn `Umayr, al-Aswad, Ibn Abi Mulayka, Abu Salama ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf, Yahya ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn Hatib, Abu `Ubayda (`Amir ibn `Abd Allah ibn Mas`ud) and others of the Tabi`i Imams directly from `A'isha.

This makes the report mass-transmitted (mutawatir) from `A'isha by over eleven authorities among the Tabi`in, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, such as Ibn Mas`ud nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha, such as Qatada!

And here is his answer to the third and fourth points:

Rather, Ya`qub said: "Trustworthy, thoroughly reliable (thiqa thabt), above reproach except after he went to Iraq, at which time he narrated overly from his father and was criticized for it." Notice that Ya`qub does not exactly endorse that criticism.

As for Malik, he reports over 100 hadiths from Hisham as is evident in the two Sahihs and Sunan! to the point that al-Dhahabi questions the authenticity of his alleged criticism of Hisham.

Indeed, none among the hadith Masters endorsed these reservations since they were based solely on the fact that Hisham in his last period (he was 71 at the time of his last trip to Iraq), for the sake of brevity, would say, "My father, from `A'isha? (abi `an `A'isha)" and no longer pronounced, "narrated to me (haddathani)".

Al-Mizzi in Tahdhib al-Kamal (30:238) explained that it became a foregone conclusion for the Iraqis that Hisham did not narrate anything from his father except what he had heard directly from him.

Ibn Hajar also dismisses the objections against Hisham ibn `Urwa as negligible in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib (11:45), saying: "It was clear enough to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what he had heard directly from him".

In fact, to say that "narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwa are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq" is major nonsense as that would eliminate all narrations of Ayyub al-Sakhtyani from him since Ayyub was a Basran Iraqi, and those of Abu `Umar al-Nakha`i who was from Kufa, and those of Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman from Kufa (the Shaykh of Abu Hanifa), and those of Hammad ibn Salama and Hammad ibn Zayd both from Basra, and those of Sufyan al-Thawri from Basra, and those of Shu`ba in Basra, all of whom narrated from Hisham! …

An outright lie, on the contrary, al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-I`tidal (4:301 #9233) states: "Hisham ibn `Urwa, one of the eminent personalities. A Proof in himself, and an Imam. However, in his old age his memory diminished, but he certainly never became confused. Nor should any attention be paid to what Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattan said about him and Suhayl ibn Abi Salih becoming confused or changing! Yes, the man changed a little bit and his memory was not the same as it had been in his younger days, so that he forgot some of what he had memorized or lapsed, so what? Is he immune to forgetfulness? [p. 302] And when he came to Iraq in the last part of his life he narrated a great amount of knowledge, in the course of which are a few narrations in which he did not excel, and such as occurs also to Malik, and Shu`ba, and Waki`, and the major trustworthy masters. So spare yourself confusion and floundering, do not make mix the firmly-established Imams with the weak and muddled narrators. Hisham is a Shaykh al-Islam. But may Allah console us well of you, O Ibn al-Qattan, and the same with regard to `Abd al-Rahman ibn Khirash's statement from Malik!"

Mr. Amjad also claims that:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

Al-Maududi refutes this date:

Period of Revelation
The incident of the shaqq-al-Qamar (splitting of the moon) that has been mentioned in it determines its period of revelation precisely. The traditionists and commentators are agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's hijra to Madinah. (Source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

As does Haddad:

Not true. The hadith Masters, Sira historians, and Qur'anic commentators agree that the splitting of the moon took place about five years before the Holy Prophet's (upon him blessings and peace) Hijra to Madina.

Thus it is confirmed that our Mother `Aisha was born between seven and eight years before the Hijra and the words that she was a jariya or little girl five years before the Hijra match the fact that her age at the time Surat al-Qamar was revealed was around 2 or 3.

To read Haddad’s complete rebuttal to Amjad’s article please click on the following links: 1, 2, 3.

Muhammad's Marriage to a Prepubescent Girl and its Moral Implications [Part 2]
Just addressing your very last link to Sam Shamoun His quote of Sahih Muslim 2728

Quote:
This hadith is interesting in light of the assertions of many a Muslim apologist that no one objected to Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha. Doesn’t Abu Bakr’s reaction refute such a claim? Was he not clearly objecting to Muhammad’s proposal, in fact perturbed and shocked that his prophet would do such a thing?

The English translator of Sahih Muslim, while seeking to justify Muhammad’s marriage to a young girl, nonetheless admits:

2728. ‘A’isha was the third lady to enter the house of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) as his wife, and she was the only virgin in the consorts of purity of the Prophet’s house. She was of a tender age when she was married to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him). Historical records bear ample testimony to the fact that ‘A’isha was a precocious genius and was developing in both mind and body with rapidity peculiar to such rare personalities. This marriage is significant in the history of Islam in so many aspects: firstly, it cemented the ties between Muhammad (may peace be upon him), and his devoted friend Abu Bakr who always stood by him in the hours of trial and who sacrificed his all for the cause of Islam; secondly, by this marriage, a lady of eminent qualities came under the direct influence of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) at a highly impressionable age, and this provided her ample opportunities to penetrate into the innermost recesses of the sacred heart of Muhammad (may be upon him). She shared his company and thus was able to develop her potentialities and refine her taste perfectly in accordance with the teachings of Islam under the direct supervision of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). This young age was in fact very opportune for marriage as it has been clearly shown in the researches of psychoanalysts that much of the emotional life of a mature person and most of the seemingly unaccountable leanings, taste and tendencies comprised in the term idiosyncrasies can be traced to the experience of his or her highly formative age of either later childhood or early adolescence. Thirdly, all the wives of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with the exception of ‘A’isha were of advanced age and thus could neither share the feelings of the younger generation nor could they properly appreciate their point of view. The difference of age always stood as a barrier between them and the ladies of younger ages. The only lady with whom young women could frankly enter into conversation and discuss problems without any reserve could be none but ‘A’isha. Thus the threshold of puberty was a great necessity, as it was through her that instructions could successfully be imparted to the young ladies who had newly entered the fold of Islam. Moreover, this marriage struck at the root of a wrong notion which had firmly taken hold of the minds of the people that it was contrary to religious ethics to marry the daughter of a man whom one declared to be one’s brother. The Prophet (may peace be upon him), with the help of his personal example, showed to the people that there is a great difference between the brother in faith and the brother in relation to the blood. The marriage which is forbidden in Islam is with the daughter of the brother in blood and not with the daughter of the brother in faith. (Sahih Muslim by Imam Muslim, rendered into English by Abdul Hamid Siddiqi [Kitab Bhavan Exporters & Importers, 1784, Kalan, Mahal, Daryaganji, New Delhi-110002 (India), 11th reprinted 1995], Volume III & IV, pp. 1298-1299; bold emphasis ours)
Now go to any Hadith site or just google Sahih Muslim 2728 and see what is actually said
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Old 07-03-2015, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,600,780 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One thing I am finding is the concept of what constitutes evil verses in the Qur'an and NT is highly subjective. I find a sizable number of Atheists are of the opinion the NT is very violent.. See the Skeptics annotated Bible HERE
"Evil' is a very loose term and generally represent something that is negative to the well being of the individual, group or humanity.
It is a question of transparency definition and qualification.
In my case I have defined what is generally meant by 'evil' and I take into consideration the degrees involved.
In addition I have subjected by point to heavy philosophical and critical review.

Quote:
A lot of the concept of violence in The NT or the Qur'an is going to be altered
by personal bias.
This can be easily agreed upon where it is obvious and where there is disagree it can be qualified with 'subject to ..'

Quote:
There is also an issue as to how verses are counted. The Bible counts each
sentence as a Verse, which gives a total of 23,145 verses The Qur'an counts
each ayyat as a verses, which can be many sentences For example 2:283 contains
about 10-20 sentences
Btw, you are deflecting again. I am not comparing with the Bible at all.

To be objective we need some consistent standard.
Most Qurans has 6236 verses with slight variations for some. This standard is to facilitate easy reference and comparisons.

Thus 3427 evil [as defined] laden verses out of 6236 verses, i.e. 55% is very significant.
In addition I have analyzed the 3427 verses into 50+ categories and I put weightages or degrees of evilness to each verse.

There are no ultra and extremely good verses directed at the kuffar [non-Muslims] at all, if any [rare] they are very conditional, i.e. as dhimmis, slaves and subjugated.

Therefore, with reference to the Kuffar, you will note the gravity pull of 'evilness' is extraordinary greater than 'goodness.' This is the critical element of why SOME [not all] Muslims are compelled by this force to commit terrible evils and violence on the Kuffar. This is an undisputable fact.


Quote:
The problem is there is no punctuation in Qur'anic Arabic. The number of sentences in each ayyat will depend upon the interpretation of the translator. The problem that slants the percentages is the number of verses in the NT comes out to be 31,173 while the verses in the Qur'an get counted as 6,236/6,237 (will vary depending upon the translator. The NT contains 184,590 words and the Qur'an contains 77,934

The problem with this is the percentages in the Qur'an are not based upon the number of sentences as they are in the NT. although the nt is only slightlmore than twice the Qur'an when boing by words it is neary 4 times as large when compared by number of verses. unted the NT contains 184,590 words and the Qur'an contains 77,934.
Using atheist sources which I believe will be the least biased, I am finding a far number that consider the NT to be more violent then the Qur'an or at the least no different

Notice that is not a far comparison as the bible counts each sentence as a verse and in the Qur'an most ayyats are multiple sentences. If one counts each sentence in the Qur'an as a verse, like it is in the bible the percentages in the Qur'an would drop considerably.

The point being the bible is no less violent than the Qur'an. Yet few Westerners would say the Bible incites or encourages violence.

Neither does the Qur'an.
As I said, I am NOT comparing the Quran and the Bible AT ALL.

Since you bring the Bible and Skeptic Annotated, their Bible numbers comprised the OT and NT in total. So you are wrong in this. There are evil laden verses in the NT but they are minimal.
I agree the evil laden verses in the OT are VERY evil and terrible, and the Quran adopted many of their evilness from the OT.

However with Christianity and NT, the very contrasting difference is all the evil-laden verses are abrogated and overridden by the ultra extreme "love" verses, i.e. 'love your enemies,' 'love your neighbor,' 'give your other cheeks.'

On the other hand, there are no extreme love and pacifist verses to act as a check and modulator to the ultra extreme evil laden verses in the Quran.
 
Old 07-03-2015, 10:01 PM
 
1,886 posts, read 1,664,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
1. Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child.
.

What was the reaction of his enemy ?
 
Old 07-03-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,600,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One assumption you are making is in regards to reading the Ahadith. Few Muslims ever do. it is considered to best be left to advanced scholars and a person who does not have a least a Baccalaurete in Islamic Studies should not read it. It is nearly impossible for a Muslim outside the USA to get a copy of ahadith (Plural of Hadith) except as part of a college course. A person must be aware that not all hadith are valid and there are varyng degrees of Authenticity and reliability.

Only 40 Ahadith are considered to be possiblble direct revelations from Allaah(swt) to Muhammad, those being the Hadith Qudsi. Every other Hadith is only as true as the memory of the witness. some witnesses did not write their observations until many years after the event.

While Most Muslims do listen to recitations of the Qur'an for at least a few minutes daily, if they are an adult they will have also heard numerous commentaries from scholars with opposing opinions. By the time they are an adult they should be aware no ayyat is a command.
What assumption? Where?

My point is once we fully understand the Quran within step 1-9[listed earlier] and reconciled with many other perspectives, it is easy [ABC] to understand the Hadiths and the underlying psychological and other factors of the writers. The only issue with the Hadiths is because it is too voluminous to enable completeness control. Note the Hadiths are easily accessible in the internet these days.

Note my approach is eclectic, so I generally reconcile what I learned, in this case the Quran [the core of Islam], with all relevant knowledge I need to and can get access to.
There are only 6236 verses in the Quran, therefore it is easy to establish Completeness Control, i.e. to ensure nothing get out of context and the whole scheme of religion, spirituality, and humanity.

Advanced Scholars??
As long as they are Muslims they will always read it with bias-tinted-glasses.
I have not come across any Islamic Scholars that is not-bias regardless of how much logic, reason and rationality they try to read the Quran.
 
Old 07-03-2015, 11:07 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 758,874 times
Reputation: 435
What do you think about the Argument from the Chain of Transmission?
 
Old 07-03-2015, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,600,780 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the Ahadith are not stand alone proofs. It is quite complex to determine exactly what any hadith actually proves.

There are not as many unique hadith as what appearances indicate. Many Ahadith are repeated numerous times but are just one hadith. The hadith narrated by Hissham is the only hadith that gives Aisha's age. The problem is it has been repeated several times in different collections, sometimes with slight differences in wording based upon the isnad. but it is a single hadith.

there is some question as to if it is Sahih. What is known Hisham ibn urwah(Also called just Hisham or just Urwah) was quite old when he wrote his memories of Aisha) The age he attributes to Aisha was never confirmed by any other person. Looking at other Ahadith The Ahadith give more reason to believe Aisha was 19 or 20, not 6 or 7, at the time she married Muhammad (saws)

more can be read here. What was Ayesha’s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?
Juju33312 gave a very good point, i.e. the mentioning of dolls. In the olden days, young girls are likely to be weaned off dolls from a very young age. So there is the inference that Aisha could be very young.

From a psychological point of view all adults males and females will have a nurturing and caring tendencies towards younger children up to teens till they are independent. This is common in the animal world, whilst the nurturing period is shorter.

A fierce crocodile will not eat its young [at least for a few months] but if the same croc were to meet its youngs 12 months later, it would instinctively eat it up without hesitation.
This critical factors are oxytocins, various neural circuitry other related chemicals, the bonding neurotransmitter within the brain.

For the normal human, they will have a more permanent an extended nurturing set [neutrally and chemically] and more stronger in the females.

Pedophiles are those who has heightened and perverted sexual desires plus a lack of efficient nurturing potentials and tendencies. As with most perversions, it is likely 0.1 to 1% of males have pedophiles tendencies and are common in older men where neural inhibitors had been greatly reduced by atrophy.
This percentile had existed for thousands of years.
Marrying early may be a social conditions relative to ancient conditions it may be justifiable , but we cannot deny pedophiles do not exist and thus they exploited the lack of control and other conditions.

However, given Muhammad's status he is the chosen prophet of God and an exemplar for all mankind to follow, his marrying of such a young girls do not pass the theistic, theological and divine moral criteria.

Based on the stories & scandals of Muhammad in the Hadith and taking the full perspective in view, it is most likely there is some degrees of pedophilla. If Allah is that supremely great, he should have easily avoided this moral controversy and ensure a fool proof example.

The above is a good reason why there are the anti-hadiths and Quran-Only Muslims.
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Last edited by Continuum; 07-03-2015 at 11:41 PM..
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