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Old 07-03-2015, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
What do you think about the Argument from the Chain of Transmission?
Note Chinese Whispers, attentive bias, confirmation bias and the natural potential of corruption.
We need to research on the limitation of oral traditions;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_t...sm_and_debates

Note even in normal circumstance most did not see the black gorilla. There is a lot of research to support why humans tend and necessarily has to be bias.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo


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Worst still, when soteriological matters are leveraged on a matter of eternal life in heaven or eternal torment in hell and thus more sensitive to corruption.
Besides Islam leaned very heavily toward politics and politics [as most will know] is more about lying than truths.

In addition, Arabic is a very sensitive language and the slightest change can throw the meaning way off tangent.

Note the other perspective of Islam;
The possibility, the historical Muhammad is a myth and Islam was an invented religion to unite the imperialistic empire started by some unknown group of aggressive Arabs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam:_The_Untold_Story

Last edited by Continuum; 07-03-2015 at 11:43 PM..

 
Old 07-04-2015, 04:47 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,560 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

Does it really matter if the media claims a crime was done in the name of a religion or for any other reason or even no reason?
It all comes down to being the action of the individual.

You seem to want to automatically let religion off the hook without even any investigation.
 
Old 07-04-2015, 04:51 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,560 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan View Post
In 2013 there were 152 terrorist attacks in the EU. 2 of them were religious in origin, and none of those were from Muslims. Worldwide, Muslim terrorism makes up less than 10% of the total terrorist attacks. Ethnic/separatist attacks make up the majority. Get the facts, don't just make assumptions based on what you see in online media.
Do you have anything to support that claimed "fact"?

A couple of online sources for you (which at least are giving references to the research in question)--




Sunni Muslim 'Extremists' Committed 70% of Terrorist Murders in 2011

Sunni Muslim 'Extremists' Committed 70% of Terrorist Murders in 2011


(CNSNews.com) - Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC).

The information comes from the 2011 NCTC Report on Terrorism, which is based on information available as of March 12, 2012.

“Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year,” the report says. “More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities.”




4 Sunni Muslim Groups Responsible for 66% of All 17,958 Terror Killings in 2013

4 Sunni Muslim Groups Responsible for 66% of All 17,958 Terror Killings in 2013


(CNSNews.com) – The number of people killed by terrorists worldwide in 2013 rose by 60 percent compared to the previous year – from 11,133 to 17,958 – with four Sunni Muslim extremist groups responsible for two-thirds of all fatalities, according to a comprehensive annual study.
 
Old 07-04-2015, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What assumption? Where?

My point is once we fully understand the Quran within step 1-9[listed earlier] and reconciled with many other perspectives, it is easy [ABC] to understand the Hadiths and the underlying psychological and other factors of the writers. The only issue with the Hadiths is because it is too voluminous to enable completeness control. Note the Hadiths are easily accessible in the internet these days.

Note my approach is eclectic, so I generally reconcile what I learned, in this case the Quran [the core of Islam], with all relevant knowledge I need to and can get access to.
There are only 6236 verses in the Quran, therefore it is easy to establish Completeness Control, i.e. to ensure nothing get out of context and the whole scheme of religion, spirituality, and humanity.

Advanced Scholars??
As long as they are Muslims they will always read it with bias-tinted-glasses.
I have not come across any Islamic Scholars that is not-bias regardless of how much logic, reason and rationality they try to read the Quran.
I should have said the Ahadith are intended to be read by those that have a working knowledge of Arabic and are familiar with the rules of Authenticity and Reliability as established by Bukhari along with an understanding of why each of the 7 accepted compilations are arraigned as they are and how to trace the Isnad of each Hadith
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Old 07-04-2015, 09:55 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,085,728 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The problem is the only knowledge we have about Aisha is Aisha herself. There are no third party witnesses or collaborators. Many were things Aiasha told to narrators who wroe them down.

A big problem is that many narrations where narrated by Hisham.
Why would a first person account be less valid than a third person one? I know, I know, for a rape to be valid under Islam it must be witnessed by someone else. You may swallow that as being valid, however most the world views that as bovine scat.

You know and I know that such sex acts are normally not witnessed by other people. Is there a suggestion that under is Islam voyeurism is required to ensure that no illegal sex takes place? Because there is virtually no other time that such sex acts could be witnessed.

So are you telling us that in Islam a girl is considered a woman as soon as she enters puberty? No matter what her age is? So that even if she answers purity at 9 or 10 or 11 that she is now okay to have sex with?

What a perverted point of you no matter what your religion is. And to excuse it on the basis of religion is starting to take the same type of stance is that Jeffbase 40 takes on his defense of the Duggars, where the young Josh as a teenager molested his sisters.

If there is anything that gets my blood boiling is the abuse whether sexual or physical of children. I don't really care whether that child has or has not reached menses, but to justify the sexual abuse of that child do to your religion is untenable in a right thinking person's mind.

WikiIslam accepts what the religious text and Muslims say over the opinions and interpretations of third-party western commentators.

Most of its editors are former Muslims, and just as in Christianity, often the atheist former Muslim is more aware of the Quran, hadithsp and other religious texts than those that adhere to a religion.

WikiIslam has a long and detailed discourse that refutes the points you made with regards to Aisha's age. It is much too long to copy here, but this is the link.

Aisha's Age of Consummation - WikiIslam

These are the topics covered:

1 Introduction
1.1 Purpose
1.2 History
2 Analysis
2.1 First Argument: Number of Narrators
2.2 Second Argument: Locality
2.3 Third Argument: Reliability of Hisham
2.4 Fourth Argument: Hisham's Memory
2.5 Fifth Argument: Revelation Time of Surah al-Qamar
2.6 Sixth Argument: Battle of Badr and Uhud
2.7 Seventh Argument: Asma's Age
2.8 Eighth Argument: Tabari's Account
2.9 Ninth Argument: Time of Umar's Conversion to Islam
2.10 Tenth Argument: Abu Bakr's Migration to Habshah
2.11 Eleventh Argument: Meaning of Bikr
2.12 Twelfth Argument: Fatima's Age Difference
2.13 Thirteenth Argument: Arab Tradition
3 Conclusion
4 See Also
5 External Links
6 Acknowledgments
7 References
 
Old 07-04-2015, 10:09 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,650,674 times
Reputation: 115
The Prophet Muhammad peace and blessing of Allah be upon him had so many enemies
and they did their best to destroy his message and they will not miss any shameful thing they can see or hear on the Prophet
and if his marriage to Aisha was shameful they would have used that to destroy his message
but his marriage was normal and typical to his enemies and to her father and her mother and to every one
let alone she was already engaged to a non muslim man and because of that man refused to become a muslim her father cancelled that engagement.
also the idea and the advice to marry Aisha came from a mature woman after his wife Khadija died.
 
Old 07-04-2015, 10:24 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
"If there is anything that gets my blood boiling is the abuse whether sexual or physical of children."

Agree. I have worked with seually abused children. Perhaps Muslim men should volunteer at a Crisis Center for children who have been raped. It is heartbreaking.

What kind of man wants to force himself on a little child of 9 years old? And after speaking to almost 2500 Muslims about this, NOT ONE would say that Muhammed was wrong to do such a thing. NOT ONE!

Muhammed, who raped and murdered and demanded terrorism and owned and sold and traded slaves and instructed that all non-Muslims be killed and taught hate for non-Muslims is above moral judgement by Muslims and the perfect example for Muslims to follow. And that answers the OP's question.
 
Old 07-04-2015, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
You seem to want to automatically let religion off the hook without even any investigation.
Since I am Muslim and this is the Islamic forum it does seem to be the appropriate place to give the unabashedly biased view as a practicing Muslim sees it. Yes if a Muslim were to do so in the Judaic forum I would delete their post and give an infraction. This is the forum we can tell our views of Islam

The individual religious forums exist so adherents of the belief can express their religion favorably. There are forums for most religions that have requested forums and one for atheist.

We all have our place where we can freely express our love for what we believe without fear of condemnation.

Although there are some that seem to be under the impression the Islamic forum is the appropriate place to tell us Muslims, that our beliefs and religion are wrong.

Yes, when in this forum I am biased towards Islam. I have found reason to believe it is true and that it is the path to peace. This is the forum that it is appropriate to show my bias towards Islam.

For those that do not want to hear why Muslims believe Islam to be the truth and peace there are other city-Data forums that I can assure you do not speak well of Islam.


But if a person ventures into the Islamic Forum, expect to hear us speak of Islam in the best of words. Feel free to call it bias, but Muslims do love Islam and will speak defensively regarding it.
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Old 07-04-2015, 10:31 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
"but his marriage was normal and typical "

Let's assume this is true (it isn't, but let's assume it is).

Muhammed was supposedly sent to be a shining example for people to follow. Is the rape of a 9 year old child a good example? Instead of stopping such evil, Muhammed joined in! And he knew that he was the example!!

Muhammed also raped women, let his men mass rape women, owned and traded and sold slaves, attacked unarmed villages with his gang and slaughtered the men and raped the women, demanded terrorism and hate and slaughter of non-Muslims.

Can you say that Muhammed was evil to do any of these things? Or is rape and murder and terrorism and pedophilia and hate OK when Muhammed does it?
 
Old 07-04-2015, 10:34 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
"But if a person ventures into the Islamic Forum, expect to hear us speak of Islam in the best of words. Feel free to call it bias, but Muslims do love Islam and will speak defensively regarding it."

I totally support this! I have learned from you and I certainly appreciate that!!
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