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Old 07-04-2015, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"If there is anything that gets my blood boiling is the abuse whether sexual or physical of children."

Agree. I have worked with seually abused children. Perhaps Muslim men should volunteer at a Crisis Center for children who have been raped. It is heartbreaking.

What kind of man wants to force himself on a little child of 9 years old? And after speaking to almost 2500 Muslims about this, NOT ONE would say that Muhammed was wrong to do such a thing. NOT ONE!

Muhammed, who raped and murdered and demanded terrorism and owned and sold and traded slaves and instructed that all non-Muslims be killed and taught hate for non-Muslims is above moral judgement by Muslims and the perfect example for Muslims to follow. And that answers the OP's question.
In Texas I worked for CPS as a Sexual Abuse Investigator and as a consoltant for an iterdisciplinary team writing treatment plans for such children.

No where have I seen any proof Muhammad(saws) sexually molested any Child.

Even taking the Stockholm syndrome into consideration, the Writings of Aisha give no indication of molestation.
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Old 07-04-2015, 11:32 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,113,914 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Since I am Muslim and this is the Islamic forum it does seem to be the appropriate place to give the unabashedly biased view as a practicing Muslim sees it. Yes if a Muslim were to do so in the Judaic forum I would delete their post and give an infraction. This is the forum we can tell our views of Islam

The individual religious forums exist so adherents of the belief can express their religion favorably. There are forums for most religions that have requested forums and one for atheist.

We all have our place where we can freely express our love for what we believe without fear of condemnation.

Although there are some that seem to be under the impression the Islamic forum is the appropriate place to tell us Muslims, that our beliefs and religion are wrong.

Yes, when in this forum I am biased towards Islam. I have found reason to believe it is true and that it is the path to peace. This is the forum that it is appropriate to show my bias towards Islam.

For those that do not want to hear why Muslims believe Islam to be the truth and peace there are other city-Data forums that I can assure you do not speak well of Islam.


But if a person ventures into the Islamic Forum, expect to hear us speak of Islam in the best of words. Feel free to call it bias, but Muslims do love Islam and will speak defensively regarding it.
Woodrow, with you being a Muslim, I would expect you to be biased toward Islam. And if that is your religion, you should be biased towards it.

But being biased towards religion does not mean that one has to except blind faith, because when one does one accepts that the atrocities committed by that religion or in the name of that religion, is that they are acceptable. Both the Jewish and the Christian religion have the same problems.

Perhaps that is no surprise, as they all are Abrahamic religions. Religions which grew up in a tiny speck in the Middle East where the neighboring tribes knew each other, knew each others fables, and develop their own myths.

Blind faith has ended in a significant amount of human suffering, and cannot be condoned.
 
Old 07-04-2015, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Woodrow, with you being a Muslim, I would expect you to be biased toward Islam. And if that is your religion, you should be biased towards it.

But being biased towards religion does not mean that one has to except blind faith, because when one does one accepts that the atrocities committed by that religion or in the name of that religion, is that they are acceptable. Both the Jewish and the Christian religion have the same problems.

Perhaps that is no surprise, as they all are Abrahamic religions. Religions which grew up in a tiny speck in the Middle East where the neighboring tribes knew each other, knew each others fables, and develop their own myths.

Blind faith has ended in a significant amount of human suffering, and cannot be condoned.
A Muslim is obligated to question all things. What we do not Question are the Arabic words in the Qur'anic Arabic. We believe those to be the exact words that were revealed. Now as to what they mean. there are probably as many opinions as there are Muslims,

Muslims are not much in favor of being followers, we have no obligatory beliefs. Although we do have 6 beliefs that most of us have in common. The first one is essential as it would be quite an oxymoron to be Muslim and not believe it. The others while being common beliefs are not shared by all Muslims.

Belief in Allah as the one and only God

Belief in angels

Belief in the holy books

Belief in the Prophets...
e.g. Adam, Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Dawud (David), Isa (Jesus).
Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final prophet.

Belief in the Day of Judgement...
The day when the life of every human being will be assessed to decide whether they go to heaven or hell.

Belief in Allah is all Knowing...
That Allah has the knowlege of all that will happen.
Muslims believe that this doesn't stop human beings making free choices.
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Old 07-04-2015, 12:48 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,113,914 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A Muslim is obligated to question all things. What we do not Question are the Arabic words in the Qur'anic Arabic. We believe those to be the exact words that were revealed. Now as to what they mean. there are probably as many opinions as there are Muslims,

Muslims are not much in favor of being followers, we have no obligatory beliefs. Although we do have 6 beliefs that most of us have in common. The first one is essential as it would be quite an oxymoron to be Muslim and not believe it. The others while being common beliefs are not shared by all Muslims.

Belief in Allah as the one and only God

Belief in angels

Belief in the holy books

Belief in the Prophets...
e.g. Adam, Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Dawud (David), Isa (Jesus).
Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final prophet.

Belief in the Day of Judgement...
The day when the life of every human being will be assessed to decide whether they go to heaven or hell.

Belief in Allah is all Knowing...
That Allah has the knowlege of all that will happen.
Muslims believe that this doesn't stop human beings making free choices.

So in short, you choose to believe that Aisha was not underaged, and you choose to believe that Muhammad committed no child molestation?

Let's face it, until very recently, there was no controversy about her being 9 years old when that marriage was consummated. It is revisionism history that apparently you have bought into.
 
Old 07-04-2015, 12:49 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,458 times
Reputation: 435
"No where have I seen any proof Muhammad(saws) sexually molested any Child."
Considering all the verses I have posted, do you dispute that Muhammed started having sex with Aisha when she was nine years old?

Also, what does this mean to you:
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;.... QURAN - 33:50

And this:
And those who guard their private parts Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed, Quran 70:29-30
 
Old 07-04-2015, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
So in short, you choose to believe that Aisha was not underaged, and you choose to believe that Muhammad committed no child molestation?

Let's face it, until very recently, there was no controversy about her being 9 years old when that marriage was consummated. It is revisionism history that apparently you have bought into.
It was only in the past few years I first heard of Aisha. I had been a Muslim for at least 3 years before I ever heard of her. I still do not find any proof of her age in the Ahadith.

My personal inclination is it is a Metaphor. Having lived in the mideast and north Africa I had many Arab friends. I found it quite common for Arabs to make a comment like My grandmother is 6 years old. My wife is 6 years old etc. And eventially discovered that was intended to mean innocennse or purity, not a chronological age. When I first (from non-Muslims) that Aisha was 6 years old, I understood it as being a metaphor for innocense.

But I still find no proof of her age any place. All narrations mentioning her age can be traced back to one person.
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Old 07-04-2015, 01:11 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,458 times
Reputation: 435
"We believe those to be the exact words that were revealed. Now as to what they mean. there are probably as many opinions as there are Muslims,"

That renders the Quran meaningless. Why would a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE offer up his only book knowing that it would be meaningless because he wrote it in a way that was completely subjective? Why would Allah tell Muhammed to marry a person who would lie about her age in such a way that makes Muhammed looks like a pedophile?

What is odd is that non-Muslims seem to find the Quran much easier to understand than Muslims do. And, considering the number of Muslims that trot out the bible as a defense of Islam, Muslims seem to understand Hebrew and Greek.

"Muslims are not much in favor of being followers, we have no obligatory beliefs."

I'll believe that when Muslims toss out Shariah law.

"Sharia or sharia law (Arabic: شريعة‎ (IPA: [ʃaˈriːʕa]), is the Islamic legal system[1] derived from the religious precepts of Islam, particularly the Quran and the Hadith. The term sharia comes from the Arabic language term sharīʿah, which means a body of moral and religious law derived from religious prophecy, as opposed to human legislation.[2][3][4]

Sharia deals with many topics, including crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, everyday etiquette and fasting. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
 
Old 07-04-2015, 01:35 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,458 times
Reputation: 435
"My personal inclination is it is a Metaphor."

That just does not make sense. Aisha gave her age when married and her age when Muhammed started having sex with her. That does not support 'metaphor'. Also, there are events that are used to determine her age, which could not have been done if this was a metaphor.

AL-TABARI

In this year also the Messenger of God consummated his marriage with ‘A’ishah. This was in Dhu al-Qa‘dah (May-June 623) eight months after his arrival in Medina according to some accounts, or in Shawwal (April-May 623) seven months after his arrival according to others. He had married her in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadijah. At that time she was six or, according to other accounts, seven years old.


Umm Ruman said that al-Mut‘im b. ‘Adi had asked ‘A’ishah’s hand for his son, but Abu Bakr had not promised anything. Abu Bakr left and went to Mut‘im while his wife, mother of the son for whom he had asked ‘A’ishah’s hand, was with him. She said, "O son of Abu Quhafah, perhaps we could marry our son to your daughter if you could make him leave his religion and bring him in to the religion which you practice." He turned to her husband al-Mut‘im and said, "What is she saying?" He replied, "She says [what you have heard]." Abu Bakr left, [realizing that] God had [just] removed the problem he had in his mind. He said to Khawlah, "Call the Messenger of God." She called him and he came. Abu Bakr married [‘A’ishah] to him when she was [only] six years old. (The History of Al-Tabari: The Last Years of the Prophet, translated and annotated by Ismail K. Poonawala [State University of New York Press, Albany 1990], Volume IX, pp. 129-130)

SAIF-UR-RAHMAN AL-MUBARAKPURI

3. 'Aishah bint Abu Bakr: He married her in the eleventh year of Prophethood, a year after his marriage to Sawdah, and two years and five months before Al-Hijra. She was six years old when he married her. However, he did not consummate the marriage with her till Shawwal seven months after Al-Hijra, and that was in Madinah. She was nine then. She was the only virgin he married, and the most beloved creature to him. As a woman she was the most learnèd woman in jurisprudence. (Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (THE SEALED NECTAR) Biography of the Noble Prophet, [Maktaba Dar-us-Salam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition 1995], "The Prophetic Household", p. 485)

I understand that it would be hard to admit that the man you think of as a perfect example would do such things. In a way it is good that you refuse to accept the truth...it shows that deep down you know this was evil.
 
Old 07-04-2015, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"No where have I seen any proof Muhammad(saws) sexually molested any Child."
Considering all the verses I have posted, do you dispute that Muhammed started having sex with Aisha when she was nine years old?
Yes I dispute it,

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Also, what does this mean to you:
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;.... QURAN - 33:50
33:50 (Asad) O PROPHET! Behold, We have made lawful to thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowers, [57] as well as those whom thy right hand has come to possess from among the captives of war whom God has bestowed upon thee. [58] And [We have made lawful to thee] the daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who have migrated with thee [to Yathrib]; [59] and any believing woman who offers herself freely to the Prophet and whom the Prophet might be willing to wed: [60] [this latter being but] a privilege for thee, and not for other believers - [seeing that] We have already made known what We have enjoined upon them with regard to their wives and those whom their right hands may possess. [61] [And] in order that thou be not burdened with [undue] anxiety - for God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace –

33:50 (Y. Ali) O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

33:50 (Picktall) O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncles on the mother's side emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage, a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers. We are aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

If you read it in conjunction with ayyats 48 and 49 you should notice it relates to the rules of marriage and who can marry who.




Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
And this:
And those who guard their private parts Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed, Quran 70:29-30
again do not take any ayyat as a stand alone statement.

It is another reminder as to who can marry who

70:28 (Asad) for, behold, of their Sustainer's chastisement none may ever feel [wholly] secure; [11]
70:29 (Asad) and who are mindful of their chastity, [12]
70:30 (Asad) [not giving way to their desires] with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess [through wedlock] - : [13] for then, behold, they are free of all blame,
]

70:28 (Y. Ali) For their Lord's displeasure is the opposite of Peace and Tranquillity;-
70:29 (Y. Ali) And those who guard their chastity
70:30 (Y. Ali) Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,


70:28 (Picktall) Lo! the doom of their Lord is that before which none can feel secure
70:29 (Picktall) And those who preserve their chastity
70:30 (Picktall) Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy;
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Old 07-04-2015, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,051 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Since I am Muslim and this is the Islamic forum it does seem to be the appropriate place to give the unabashedly biased view as a practicing Muslim sees it. Yes if a Muslim were to do so in the Judaic forum I would delete their post and give an infraction. This is the forum we can tell our views of Islam

The individual religious forums exist so adherents of the belief can express their religion favorably. There are forums for most religions that have requested forums and one for atheist.

We all have our place where we can freely express our love for what we believe without fear of condemnation.

Although there are some that seem to be under the impression the Islamic forum is the appropriate place to tell us Muslims, that our beliefs and religion are wrong.

Yes, when in this forum I am biased towards Islam. I have found reason to believe it is true and that it is the path to peace. This is the forum that it is appropriate to show my bias towards Islam.

For those that do not want to hear why Muslims believe Islam to be the truth and peace there are other city-Data forums that I can assure you do not speak well of Islam.

But if a person ventures into the Islamic Forum, expect to hear us speak of Islam in the best of words. Feel free to call it bias, but Muslims do love Islam and will speak defensively regarding it.
Does that mean that someone can open a section on Nazism and all sorts of topic of perversions and promote them positively and no one is allowed to critique it?
If the above is too extreme, then what about someone starting a forum praising the use of heroin and other dangerous drugs, and no critiques are allowed.

The fact is there are terrible evils being committed around the world in the name of Islam. It is also a fact there are evil-laden elements within the Quran and the ethos of Islam that catalyze SOME evil prone Muslims to commit those terrible evils.

Thus for the sake of the following;
1. Well being of humanity in the long run
2. Basic morality level
3. Critical and rational thinking
critiques should be allowed to those who has valid justifications to criticize Islam.

One will note out there in the reality of reality, there are a wide range of views on Islam [from Muslims and non-Muslims] which are true depending on one's perspective, [note half-empty half-full glass and the young-old lady illusions].

It is morally unhealthy to merely reflect one view for any topic.
In general there is dualism in every thing, as in Newton's third law or the YIN-YANG principle. Thus every topic and views MUST be opened for criticism, this is how humanity has improved and progressed.
BIGOTRY itself must be criticized.
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